T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE...Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.
.... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign ... American Beauty__The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___PIEDMONT ........ COUPON .....….... UZIT


This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 823.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's

Posts #1035 >> 1050.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1051 >> 1066.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1068 >> 1070.....Imagine the T206 guys come alive, great read about the 1904 season

Posts #1071 >> 1086....."pet peeves" regarding certain T206's...and tell us of your's ?

Posts #1087 >> 1100.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1101 >> 1150.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1151 >> 1160.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1161 >> 1193.....ATC's "signature" white-border T-card. Post your favorite Red Cobb

Posts #1194 >> 1198.....Questionable action poses on certain T206's. Show us a questionable pose

Posts #1199 >> 1200....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1201 >> 1207....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1208 >> 1213.....Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards

Posts #1214 >> 1225.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card survey (Updated)

Posts #1226 >> 1237.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

Posts #1238 >> 1250....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them

Posts #1251 >> 1262....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them

Posts #1263 >> 1281.....T206-like T209 (CONTENTNEA) 1st series....show us your T209 cards

Posts #1283 >> 1294.....TRIVIA....Iffy call cost Team the Pennant. Who's the T206 player involved ?

Posts #1295 >> 1300.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Posts #1301 >> 1302.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Post #1303....................INDEX

Posts #1305 >> 1310.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Posts #1311 >> 1314.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1316 >> 1318.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1328 >> 1332.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1335 >> 1341.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1342 >> 1350.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

Posts #1351 >> 1373.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

Posts #1374 >> 1376.....Interesting association of AB350 (no-frame) T206's and AB460 T206's

Posts #1377 >> 1398.....Fun run....PIEDMONT 350-460 Fact 25....Give it the old college try

Posts #1399 >> 1400.....TRIVIA....Pitcher, Reliever, Infielder & good hitter. Name this T206 guy ?

Posts #1401 >> 1402.....TRIVIA....Pitcher, Reliever, Infielder & good hitter. Name this T206 guy ?

Post #1403....................INDEX

Posts #1412 >> 1434.....To Grade, or not to Grade....that is the Question regarding T206 set(s)

Posts #1435 >> 1450.....Anti-tobacco guys....Connie Mack and Eddie Plank

Posts #1451 >> 1459.....Anti-tobacco guys....Connie Mack and Eddie Plank

Posts #1460 >> 1472.....Stamps, BB cards, old Cars, which of them did you collect 1st ?

Posts #1476 >> 1500.....Re-visiting PIEDMONT 460 Fac. #42 cards....are there any more than 72 of them ?

Posts #1501 >> 1537.....Re-visiting PIEDMONT 460 Fac. #42 cards....are there any more than 72 of them ?

Posts #1538 >> 1550.....TRIVIA.....the NAME's the SAME..a T206 guy's name "coincides" with 1950's TOPPS guy

Posts #1551 >> 1570.....TRIVIA.....the NAME's the SAME..a T206 guy's name "coincides" with 1950's TOPPS guy

Posts #1571 >> 1578.....T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Nov 2006, Barry Sloate informed me that he had acquired a T206 collection including 300 cards with Sovereign backs. These cards would be in his November auction. I won
262 of these cards (including 38 HOFers). Having 60 - Sovereign cards to start with, I was determined to complete this set. I do not need the "Big 6", nor Lundgren, nor the
Southern Leaguers (48 cards), I thought this project would be easy. However, early in this game I realized that the big challenge would be to figure out which subjects were
Not Printed with Sovereign backs.
By the Fall of 2007, I had completed this Sovereign set....and, I was confident that I had figured out which T206's were not printed with Sovereign backs. And, I am happy
to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time.

A complete SOVEREIGN-only set comprises of 402 different subjects. And, if you are really "gung ho"....go for a master SOVEREIGN set comprising of 476 cards.

During the Sovereign press runs, American Litho (ALC) introduced a new feature into the T206's....the 350/460 series. ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects **.
And, printed them with Sovereign 460 backs during the printing of the 460-only series (46 subjects).
Note that the Sovereign 460 versions of these 6 subjects are considerably tougher to find relative to the regular 46 subjects in the 460-only series.

Shown here are the Six Super-Prints with their SOVEREIGN 350 backs and their SOVEREIGN 460 backs......


.

-------


............




The 350/460 story continues in the following post with a complete array display of the 66 subjects (with Sovereign 350 backs) which ALC designated for the 350/460 series.


** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in
the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".


TED Z
.

[Leon]

This thread has become historic on our forum over time. Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *


<<>>


Continuing from post #2, illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected for the 350/460 series. American Litho printed
the backs of these 66 cards using an apple green colored ink (instead of the deep green seen on the backs of all the other SOVEREIGN cards).
For more info on this topic, check-out this thread posted in 2009....Sovereign phantom "350/460" series
Here is my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects (Super-Prints are double-printed **)



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v









The next two posts will get more into the "nitty-gritty" of this mystifying 350/460 series......especially regarding their front/back combos.


** Note
I show the super-prints Double-Printed (D-P) on this sheet, since several large T206 surveys have indicated that the 6 super-prints were D-P.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


A picture is worth 1000 words......so, here are the 22 tobacco advertisement backs that are available on the T206 Subjects in the 350/460 Series......


460-type backs




. .

............. Factory #42 .............



350-type backs




Assorted backs





Stay tuned for the "rhyme-n-reason" of the mutually-exclusive front/back combos found with the 460-type backs in this 350/460 series.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!

Thanks, I really appreciate your compliments, Leon.

TED Z
.

[ullmandds]

Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects

Now, continuing our study of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series.....although 22 T-brands were illustrated in the previous post, not all the 63 subjects were printed
with the rare AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT backs.
A theory was first presented in a thread posted April 2010 which hypothesized that the AB 460 and UZIT cards were printed as pairs. Also, BL 460 and red HINDU cards
were printed as pairs. Furthermore, these two sets of pairs are mutually exclusive. Refer to.... 350/460 mutually-exclusive cards ....post #14.

I've constructed the following scans of the 350/460 series subjects in order to illustrate how the mutually-exclusive 460-type (rare) backs in this series resulted from
American Lithographic separating these 63 subjects into two print groups.



Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

. . .
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B




Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).

.


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460



Refer to post #5 in this thread which displays a T206 collection of 33 different "scrap subjects" coinciding with the cards of Group A shown above......
....why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive



Stay tuned for the next Reference or Reflections. New topic....I'll surprise you ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!

Hey Pete

Thanks for the "awesome"....it's one of my favorite adjectives.

Judging from your scan, we both collect similar pieces of colorful cardboard (besides BB cards).

Take care......hope to see you at the National this summer.


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Good stuff Ted. Here's a snippet from one of my favorite T206 discovery threads. It was a 2008 thread--started by you--where what I call the "southern league paradox" was resolved collectively by the Net54 research community. Jamie Hull was a major contributor.

Scot

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ern+Leaguers+-

I'll link a few more of my favorite T206 discovery threads later.

[sreader3]

Ted,

Here is another gem where the 350/460 back profile was fleshed-out.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=220948&page=4

I think this thread is groundbreaking in describing the back profile for each and every subject in the 350/460 RP group, the superprint group and the 460-only group.

Scot

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Good stuff Ted. Here's a snippet from one of my favorite T206 discovery threads. It was a 2008 thread--started by you--where what I call the "southern league paradox" was resolved collectively by the Net54 research community. Jamie Hull was a major contributor.

Scot

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ern+Leaguers+-

I'll link a few more of my favorite T206 discovery threads later.

Hi Scot

That thread was very informative. Thanks for referencing it.

And, I do miss Jamie Hull, he would chime in with some very meaningful info regarding T206's.


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

I would be remiss if I failed to mention my "Possible Heitman Errors" thread from February 2005 where I was taken to task by the late Joe P. for daring to question "The Monster" checklist, which at the time was regarded as gospel by some.

[I think this was the first public "outing" of Ames (Hands at Chest) and Doyle (Throwing) as potential 150-onlys and Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington) and Tannehill (No "L") as potential 460-onlys--hard to believe that this has only been public information for 12 years since it is is now so commonly accepted].

http://t.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76172

Have to chuckle now about Joe P.'s blowback. I'll always be grateful to the Net54 guys who came to my defense (including Brian Weisner, Joshua Levine, Rhett Yeakley and the late, great Jim Blumenthal) even though I was a newbie. And even Joe P. eventually came around.

Scot

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Also have to cite the Net54 "Elite" surveys you spearheaded in 2007-2008 confirming that certain 150/350 guys were only available in the 350 series with the Piedmont 350 back. Those were classic.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...amp%3B++SURVEY

Scot

[sreader3]

TedZ wrote:

** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".

Lastly, Ted, thanks for this acknowledgement. The existence of the six "superprints" was probably the most interesting of the discoveries revealed in my first (2006) version of Inside T206.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
.

[parkerj33]

Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?

Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?

Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim

Hi Jim

The array of 66 subjects (in post #4) includes Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, and Bob Rhoades (who initially were intended to be continued into the 350/460 series).
However, the Major League careers of these 3 guys ended prior to American Litho printing the 460-type backs. Thus, the 350/460 series consists of 63 subjects.


TED Z
.

[parkerj33]

understood now...so the "6" in post #2 is a typo and should be "66" selected by ALC for 350/460, and then later 3 were not printed in the 460....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

understood now...so the "6" in post #2 is a typo and should be "66" selected by ALC for 350/460, and then later 3 were not printed in the 460....

In post #2......I introduce the 6 super-prints....then in post #4, I illustrate the 66 subjects that were intially selected to be included in the 350/460 series.
These 66 guys are composed of the 6 super-prints and 60 additional subjects.

But, as I have said, 3 of the 60 additional subjects were not printed because their Major League BB careers had ended. Therefore, the resulting 350/460
series comprises of the 6 super-prints and 57 other subjects


v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v


V
V









TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Ted,

Great story. Joe was a character. We had some good laughs on the phone before he passed. He was super friendly one-on-one. And, he had the ONLY copy of Schulte (Front View) Piedmont 350 in existence! (As you know he also had the Doyle Error). For years, Joe kept insisting on our calls that he had a copy of the then unconfirmed Schulte (Front View) with Piedmont 350 but could not figure out how to send me a scan! I believed he had the card, but was blown-away that he didn't have a scanner (or at least couldn't figure out how to use it). He was old school -- which is actually endearing considering we are talking about old baseball cards that are cherished across generations.

Good stuff.

Scot

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





T206 Plank has been a mystery for 108 years. In Dec 2006, after a lot of research, my "wild imagination" formed a theory for this card's scarcity..... T206 Plank theory

It was a popular thread with 113 responses; and, it is somewhat intricate. But I think you'll find it quite interesting.


.

I waited a long time to acquire this Plank, simply because I wanted one whose back was a SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30.....in order to
complete my all--Sweet Cap, Factory #30 set. The majority of the Plank cards have Sweet Cap 350 backs.


OK, Plank's card is really no mystery in my mind anymore, since I read Connie Mack's response to a Philadelphia sports writer circa 1910.....
"The secret of Plank's pitching is no secret at all. It is a good strong arm, a powerful constitution to back it, and neither drinks, smokes,
chews tobacco, nor swears...." **

Eddie Plank most likely informed ATC that he did not want his image portrayed on Tobacco cards. Being the low-keyed guy that he was,
he didn't "hype" it up like Wagner did. Let's hear your thoughts on this subject ?

**
"Connie Mack", by Norman Macht


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

One of Joe's early squabbles with me was over the Schulte card. It wasn't that I questioned whether he had this card,
I simply told him it was either a "scrap", or an anomaly.

Also, I noted that if an EPDG card of Schulte were to appear, then I would be convinced that it was a legitimate issue.

Well, we have yet to see an EPDG card.


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

It's hard to say whether the card is scrap. Looking at the card it is difficult to tell. And there are other unique front/back combos in T206. Heck, there are only two or three confirmed copies of Spencer with Piedmont 350 (although I recognize he exists with EPDG). I remain agnostic on Schulte 350's "scrapness."

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





In 2008, a thread regarding an interesting 350-only series design that I refer to as the "A-B-C-D connection"...... T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"

Here are the 4 new Tobacco brands introduced during the printing of the 350-only Series....circa Spring / Summer 1910. The American Lithographic Co. artist designed
the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM having identical stylized FRAME and lettering. American Litho printed 190 subjects (listed here) to
fill out the 350-only series (as confirmed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 and CYCLE 350 cards). Currently, the scarcer BROAD LEAF 350 and DRUM cards fall short of
this 190 intended design by 13 subjects, and 65 subjects, respectively. More new BROAD LEAF 350 and DRUM cards have surfaced in recent years, and will continue to
be discovered in the future.





The 190 subjects included in this series of these four T-brands

Abbott
Abstein
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Arndt
Atz
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Becker
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain

Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Butler
Campbell
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Cassidy
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Charles
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clancy
Clark
Clymer

Cobb (portrait-red)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan

Engle
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Fletcher
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)

Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)

Kroh
Kruger
Laporte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Malarkey
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
Mathewson (dark cap)
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McGann
McGinley

McGinnity
McGlynn
McIntyre (Detroit)
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty
Mullin (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin

O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelan
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Poland
Purtell
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm

Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielmann

Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young
Zimmerman


Here's my Frank Delehanty A-B-C-D connection......these are tough sub-sets to complete......so, let's see yours ?







Stay tuned....the next post here will expand on this sub-set.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




Expanding on the A-B-C-D sub-set, Darren (posts #65 & 73) of T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" added the 1910 COUPON cards, whose backs are
identical to the stylized design of the A-B-C-D cards. Providing us proof that the timeline of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set was issued Spring / Summer of 1910.


The blue Chase is my favorite T206 subject. If a DRUM card of Mr. Chase ever shows up, I might have a chance to complete this A - B - C - C - D sub-set.






TED Z
.

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

I would be remiss if I failed to mention my "Possible Heitman Errors" thread from February 2005 where I was taken to task by the late Joe P. for daring to question "The Monster" checklist, which at the time was regarded as gospel by some.

[I think this was the first public "outing" of Ames (Hands at Chest) and Doyle (Throwing) as potential 150-onlys and Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington) and Tannehill (No "L") as potential 460-onlys--hard to believe that this has only been public information for 12 years since it is is now so commonly accepted].

http://t.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76172

Have to chuckle now about Joe P.'s blowback. I'll always be grateful to the Net54 guys who came to my defense (including Brian Weisner, Joshua Levine, Rhett Yeakley and the late, great Jim Blumenthal) even though I was a newbie. And even Joe P. eventually came around.

Scot

The new members of the board need to read this thread from 12 years ago to get an insight of how this monster we call the T206 came about. Bill adds two posts one below and one that he receives packages with 2000 T206's at a time. Truly a hobby legend.

Posted By: William Heitman
This is Bill Heitman. Most, if not all, of the errors referred to were caught within about a year of publication of The Monster. They were all errors made by the publisher that I didn't catch in proofing the book. He also added the Farrah pictures without my knowledge. But, Denny was a great friend, and I let that slide. My original working checklist does not have these "errors". I notified everyone via articles in Trader Speaks of the publishing errors. Incidently, I have probably had in excess of 1,000,000 T206s in my possession. My collection was able to fill about 4800 spots on my working checklist. Also--thanks for the compliments.

Bill

[tedzan]


* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





There has been much controversy on this forum as to whether the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards belong to the T206 "family". And, much of this is due to mis-information.
So, here are the facts.... as Detective Sergeant Joe Friday (from the TV series, Dragnet) would ask...." Just the facts, man ? "......

The Macon (Georgia) Telegraph newspaper was running advertisements introducing ATC's COUPON cigarette brand in the Spring of 1910. And, as shown, in the prior post
here, the 1910 COUPON cards' backs were printed with the same stylized design as the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards (which we
know were issued in the Spring / Summer of 1910). The group of 48 subjects (Major Leaguers) were selected from an early print run of the 350-only series (illustrated in
the 48-card array shown here). And, the Southern Association subjects (20 cards) were printed from the 48 - Southern Leaguers in the T206 set. Furthermore, unlike the
T213-2 and T213-3 cards (with blue captions), the 1910 COUPON cards' captions were printed with Brown ink.

The minor exception with the 1910 COUPON (with respect to the T206 cards) is that American Litho printed the 1910 COUPON cards on "thinner" cardboard. This was done
simply because these cards were not intended to serve as Cigarette pack " stiffeners ". The initial marketing of the COUPON cigarette brand was not in packs, instead these
cigarettes were packaged in the standard cigarette cartons (11" x 3" x 2") of that era, which were labelled " COUPON Cigarettes ", and contained 100's of cigarettes. The
1910 Coupon cards were placed inside these cartons, or "spot-glued" on the outside of the carton (indicative of the red Cobb's paper loss on its back, as shown below).

Jefferson Burdick didn't have the benefit of the "Internet" when he included the 1910 COUPON set in with his classification of the T213-2 and T213-3 sets which were cards
issued 1914 - 1915 (his stated timeline). It's my opinion that Burdick would have included the T213-1 in his classification of the T206's, had he known what we now know.
Furthermore, we now know that the T213-2 and T213-3 cards were actually issued 1914 - 1919.

Click on this thread for the 1910 COUPON checklist.... FYI....1910 COUPON checklist (T213-1)


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects







The Six Super Prints are seldom seen with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.

.



.













TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

The new members of the board need to read this thread from 12 years ago to get an insight of how this monster we call the T206 came about. Bill adds two posts one below and one that he receives packages with 2000 T206's at a time. Truly a hobby legend.

Posted By: William Heitman
This is Bill Heitman. Most, if not all, of the errors referred to were caught within about a year of publication of The Monster. They were all errors made by the publisher that I didn't catch in proofing the book. He also added the Farrah pictures without my knowledge. But, Denny was a great friend, and I let that slide. My original working checklist does not have these "errors". I notified everyone via articles in Trader Speaks of the publishing errors. Incidently, I have probably had in excess of 1,000,000 T206s in my possession. My collection was able to fill about 4800 spots on my working checklist. Also--thanks for the compliments.

Bill

. .


This pamphlet size book by Bill Heitman started it all for many of us BB card collectors in the early 1980's. T206 cards were "hot" at the famous Willow Grove Show
in Pennsylvania in 1981. It is where and when I became "addicted" to collecting these gems. A T206 Vg-Ex common sold for only $2. And, a green or red Cobb sold
for only $15 - $20, each. Furthermore, if you were lucky to find a dealer at the Show selling a DRUM....you could get it for a mere $100.

Incidentally,
Dennis Eckes was the publisher of Jim Beckett's BB Card Price Guide (1st edition, 1979). Dennis published Bill Heitman's 32-page book "T206 The Monster" in 1980.

Dennis was fascinated with Farrah Fawcett. So what guy wasn't when she appeared on the scene in the late 1970's. Dennis included 6 poses of Farrah in Bill's book.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





Jim Blumenthal started the "ball rolling" regarding the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card when he posted this thread in T2006...... Senator Russel's tobacco card collection......
Jim never waivered in his belief that this Ty Cobb card should have been classified as a T206.

Seven years ago this month, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb thread that sparked some spirited discussion......including information revealing that the Ty Cobb
Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was marketed in the Spring of 1910...... What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back
Check-it-out






TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





This project has been a work in progress on Net54 since 2005. Additional inputs (or corrections) to these checklists are greatly appreciated.

In Jan 2011, for ease of access, I consolidated into a single thread the T206 front/back surveys which were previously conducted on Net54.
Furthermore, included is the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) and RED CROSS (T215-1) checklists, as these sets fall under the "T206 rubric" in that
they are White-Bordered, Brown-Captioned Tobacco cards printed and issued by American Lithographic within the 1909 - 1911 timeline.

And included is the Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back (issued Spring/Summer 1910), since it also conforms to the above stated T206 rubric.







T206 confirmed front/back surveys with respect to T-brand.

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 460

CAROLINA BRIGHTS

CYCLE 350 & 460

DRUM

EL PRINCIPE de GALES

Brown HINDU

Red HINDU

LENOX

OLD MILL

PIEDMONT

POLAR BEAR

SOVEREIGN

SWEET CAPORAL

TOLSTOI

UZIT


1910 COUPON (T213-1)

1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1)

Ty Cobb / "TY COBB" Tobacco



TED Z
.

[Rich Falvo]

Thanks to Ted and all the others who contribute to these general knowledge threads. They are a very valuable resource, especially for new collectors.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set


Imagine pulling a Joe Doyle Nat'l card from a Piedmont pack when you were a teenager. Or, your Dad's visit to Atlanta in 1910 acquiring a Ty Cobb/TY COBB card for you ? ?

One of the most unique T206 collections in the hobby is on display at the University of Georgia (Athens). Former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's collection of approx. 1000
tobacco cards were donated to Georgia U. in 1983 (along with Russell's historical papers).
Russell was an avid BB fan as a youngster. At the age of 13 (1910), he started smoking cigarettes (Piedmont was the available brand in his area of Georgia). He pulled 100's
of T206 cards from the packs he purchased. Furthermore, Old Mill brand was available in his home town, of which he accumulated 100's of T210 cards. His T206 set has 497
different cards. As depicted in the header illustration above, no Wagner or Plank in his collection. Not unusual, since these two gems were not marketed with Piedmont backs.
Also missing in his set (as shown) are Lajoie, Marquard, Chance, and the Magie error.
His teenage smoking habit came to an abrupt end in Fall of 1911, when his parents enrolled him into Gordon Military Institute. It is my impression that his BB card collecting
also ended at that point (judging from the fewer number of T205 cards in his collection).

For more info, you can check out this thread posted in 2008......Senator Russell's collection incl. Joe Doyle error & Ty Cobb back

And, here's the link to an excellent website regarding Russell's collection...... http://baseballcards.galib.uga.edu/about/


P.S.
In 2008, I became very interested in this story regarding Richard Russell's collection, since I acquired 40 cards (duplicates) from his original collection. A distant relative of his
had consigned approx. 200 cards (mostly T206's) to a dealer in Atlanta (who listed the cards on ebay). She was selling many of his duplicates which she had found in a box in
a desk drawer from Russell's estate. The T206's were all Piedmont 350 backs. Including 7 of them from the "Elite 11" group. I was thrilled to acquire all 7 of these rare cards.
Furthermore, I called the dealer in Atlanta and he was a wealth of information regarding the Russell collection.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set


WOW ! I am happy to see someone out in the hinterland is interested in this good stuff. I received an email from a Net54 reader who is fascinated with the Russell collection.
One of the questions he asked me...... "Which additional cards are missing from Russell's set ?"

In the above post regarding this collection, I posted 497 different PIEDMONT cards (the number mentioned in the Russell Collection website). However, I double-checked the
cards in this set and my count is 507 different cards. Listed here are the missing 17 cards......

Plank and Wagner (The PIEDMONT 150 cards of these two subjects were printed by American Lithographic, but never issued in cigarette packs).
Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. POLAR BEAR cigarettes were not marketed in Georgia (circa 1910-1911).
Magie error
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Chance (batting)
Davy Jones
Kiernan
Lajoie (with bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (portrait)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Moriarity
Pfeister (seated)
Stark

Furthermore, Russell's T206 set approaches a master all-PIEDMONT set, since it includes most of the additional PIEDMONT 350 cards of the 150/350 series subjects.


If anyone has anymore questions regarding this set....or questions about Mr. Russell....don't be shy about asking them. I will try to answer them.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards

The Exclusive 12 story

Feb 2013, I posted a theory regarding 12 subjects in the 460-only series that were exclusively printed on their own sheet. I base this hypothesis on several factors. Foremost
being that these 12 subjects are the only ones in the 460-only series found with red HINDU backs. Furthermore, the availability of the Exclusive 12 with the red HINDU backs
considerably out-numbers any of the 350/460 series cards with red HINDU backs

Also,, while most of the other subjects in the 460-only series were printed with LENOX backs, the Exclusive 12 are LENOX no-prints. DITTO, regarding the PIEDMONT 460 F#42
cards. This tells us that these 12 subjects were printed in a separate press run from their other "cousins" in the 460-only series. Check-out this thread...... The Exclusive 12




Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat


Illustrated here is my concept of an Exclusive 12 printed sheet....based on American Litho's 19" wide press, and a standard size 19" x 24" cardboard sheet.

.. v ............................................ 19" x 24" sheet .............................................v




More specific info and T-brand back runs regarding the Exclusive 12 group will follow in the next post.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards


Exactly 13 - T206 backs were printed on each of the Exclusive 12 subjects in the 460-only series. Illustrated here is the complete run of the McGraw cards.

Needless to say, the red HINDU and UZIT are the toughest cards to find in this run. And fortunately, there were no LENOX or PIEDMONT 460 (Factory #42)
cards printed in this group. Incidentally, this McGraw (glove) with UZIT is a brand new find.


. .







Factory #42.....................Factory #42










. . .
Factory #30



Call me "nuts"....or, whatever....but, I'm having fun engaging in a long-term project to complete the back runs of the Exclusive 12 subjects. There
are 156 possible permutations, I now have 123 of them. The UZIT cards are virtually impossible to find, so I don't expect to complete this mission

To date, there are only five Exclusive 12 confirmed UZIT cards......

Crandall
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw
Sheckard


Stay tuned for more.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Go for it Ted!! Your almost there. I'm only at 41 without trying and no Piedmont or Sweet Caporal's. I'm gonna have to put a little more effort into these. Thank you for all your T206 research.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Go for it Ted!! Your almost there. I'm only at 41 without trying and no Piedmont or Sweet Caporal's. I'm gonna have to put a little more effort into these. Thank you for all your T206 research.

Hi Ron

I really appreciate your words of encouragement......Thank you.




* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards


And here's my Russ Ford back run from the Exclusive 12 group. I just need the EPDG and UZIT to complete this 13-card run.......

Factory #30
.




Factory #42





Factory #42



Factory #30




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


HOFers in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 NF // DRUM sub-set


Tim Cathey posted a thread in July 2010 which presented that the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame (NF) and the DRUM cards were a "matched set". Tim's exact words were:
" If a 350/460 player can be found with an American Beauty 350 No Frame back they should also be found with a Drum back and visa versa. " And, this rule has withstood the
test of time as new DRUM cards have been discovered these past 7 years. The one exception to this rule is Mullin (bat), who has not yet been confirmed with a DRUM back.
I completely expect that the Mullin / DRUM card will eventually surface. Refer to Tim's thread...... Matching set....American Beauty 350 (No Frame) and Drum

Posted in 2015, the following theory regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (NF) series of 37 subjects is based on my long term experience tracking down these AB 350 cards.
Especially, the Nichols (with bat) card and the Stahl (glove) card. These 2 cards have proven to be considerably tougher to find with the AB 350NF back (and the DRUM back)
than the other 35 guys in this group. My theory suggests this group was printed in a 36-card (12 x 3) format. Nichols was in the initial print runs, while Stahl was not. Nichols
retired April 25, 1910. American Litho replaced him on their 36-card format with Jake Stahl. This theory has been proven by empirical means, and by Pop report data **

Nicholls AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 7 cards.
Stahl AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 8 cards.
The POP report (SGC + PSA) of any of the remaining 35 subjects in this group averages 14 cards each.

For further info on this subject refer to thread...... Theory regarding AB 350 NF printing


350-only series example
.
350/460 series example



AMERICAN BEAUTY 350NF // DRUM (37 subjects) checklist

Baker
Bender (no trees)
Burch (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (with bat) *

Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat) ..................... initial press runs
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove) ..................... replaced Nichols in subsequent press runs
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

* NOTE
Mullin (with bat) has yet to be confirmed with DRUM. I feel certain this card will eventually be discovered.


** Note
While I realize POP report data cannot be considered as absolute, I think it's fair to say that the POP data
is representative of the relative availability of certain cards with respect to other cards within that group.

TED Z
.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Posted in 2015, the following theory regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (NF) series of 37 subjects is based on my long term experience tracking down these AB 350 cards.
Especially, the Nicholls (with bat) card and the Stahl (glove) card. These 2 cards have proven to be considerably tougher to find with the AB 350NF back (and the DRUM back)
than the other 35 guys in this group. My theory suggests this group was printed in a 36-card (12 x 3) format. Nicholls was in the initial print runs, while Stahl was not. Nicholls
retired April 25, 1910. American Litho replaced him on their 36-card format with Jake Stahl. This theory has been proven by empirical means, and by Pop report data **

Nicholls AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 7 cards.
Stahl AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 8 cards.
The POP report (SGC + PSA) of any of the remaining 35 subjects in this group averages 14 cards each.

Ted the combined Pops for Nichols and Stahl are:

Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4)

Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)

Not trying to shoot your idea down. I just recently wrote an article about this subset and looked at the Pops for all 37 cards, so I remembered that neither of these cards were in the single digits.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Luke

Ted the combined Pops for Nichols and Stahl are:

Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4)

Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)

Not trying to shoot your idea down. I just recently wrote an article about this subset and looked at the Pops for all 37 cards, so I remembered that neither of these cards were in the single digits.

Hi Luke

I just reviewed my records of 2 years ago and the Pop numbers I had posted in my thread did not include the PSA data (although I stated that in that thread).....my bad.

So, the average Pop number for the 35 subjects in the AB 350NF group increases to 19 when PSA + SGC are totaled. Therefore, when we consider your Pop numbers for
Nicholls and Stahl, I say they do support my contention. So. what say you about this ?

Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4) See note below

Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)


Note
PSA has 2 distinct AB 350NF listings for Nichols. The listing you didn't cite has only 3 graded. Please explain why you chose the 9 data ? And, what is the difference ?


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Luke]

Hey Ted,

PSA used the generic "American Beauty" for all ABs regardless of series when they first started noting the backs on the flip. Recently, they got more specific and now they will note "American Beauty 350 no frame" on the flip.

The generic "American Beauty" heading below shows how many total Nichols American Beautys have been graded (9) and the more specific heading below that shows how many have been graded more recently and given the more specific "American Beauty 350 no frame" flip.

If you look at the individual entries in the "AB 350 no frame" listing, you'll see that those 3 cards are also counted as part of the 9 total cards graded under the generic heading.

Since we know that all Nichols ABs are the AB 350nf, we know that all 9 have the same back.

It's the same for Sovereign and Cycle. The Pop reports are not of much value for finding how many Sov150 have been graded if the same pose exists with Sov350. The generic heading will have say 30 listings, and the specific Sov150 and Sov350 listings might only have 2 or 3 each.

Here is my copy. You can see that it is listed in both the generic and the specific headings.

[tedzan]

Hi Luke

Thanks for clarifying the two PSA listings on the same Nichols card.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



My 1st adventure into rare F/B combos

I will begin with my 1st set of T206 cards. I started collecting T206's in 1981, when I acquired the Hal Chase card (displayed here) at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania.
I've always been an avid set collector (completed sets of 1887 A & G, 1888 N162, T205, T207, Goudey's, Dia Stars, PlayBall's, Leaf's, Bowman's and 1952 Topps-1987 Topps.
So, this T206 set was not high priority for me. I completed this 521-card set circa 1996. I was smart about buying the Cobb's (and other major stars) in the early 1980's.
The Cobb's were selling for only $20 back then for VgEx to Ex condition. Also, I acquired a MAGIE (Vg) for only $600 (circa 1987).

Furthermore, note the Lundgren / EPDG at the top of this page. I thank Barry Sloate for starting me searching for rare front/back combos with this one in the early 1980's.



.

Anyone want to guess what I paid for this card in 1981 ?


OK guys, that's my initial T206 story......would love to hear your experiences in the quest to (near) complete "The Monster" ?


TED Z
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[Sean]

I'm guessing you paid $6.That include a premium for the rare Old Mill back.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I was paying $25.00 for 50 different in 1977 so I will guess $1.00 Ted

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

I'm guessing you paid $6.That include a premium for the rare Old Mill back.

OK, Sean and Mike

I paid $8 for the Chase.

Back then, unless it was a T206 DRUM back, not much consideration was given to "rare" backs by most dealers.


TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Gee, I thought some of you would chime in here and share your experience(s) of putting together your T206 sets.

Oh well....I sold my first T206 set in 1997 to a close friend. Then in 2004, a long-time friend of mine from Florida called me to say they were driving up to Pennsylvania to visit
relatives. And, he was bringing his T206 collection with him. He asked me if I was interested in it ? Of course, I said yes !
We worked out a nice cash/trade deal (his T206's for my Goudey's and Diamond Stars and a stack of Ben Franklin's). Afterward, we celebrated by treating them to an exquisite
dinner at the near-by Washington Crossing Inn.

This T206 collection comprised of approx. 500 cards, including the St Louis variations of Demmitt & O'Hara, and 29 different T206 backs (no BL 460 or DRUM). Within a month,
I acquired the needed Stars and Commons to make it a 520-card set.

Stay tuned, my 3rd set is an interesting adventure. Meanwhile, I do look forward to hearing of your set experiences.


TED Z
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[Ronnie73]

I got somewhat of a late start on my T206 collection. I didn't get serious about the cards and the set until 2010. Before that, I spent time collecting post-war cards, coins, stamps, and comic books from 1982 to 2009. I had a small number of T206's before really being interested in them. All low grade commons. I don't really count them as the start. My start and what I still call my first T206 set purchase in 2010 was a Hooks Wiltse Pitching. I remember scanning the pages of ebay looking for something special to officially start my set. Viewing the scans of the fronts & backs and looking for hidden gems. Then I found it. Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95 and have been hooked ever since. My first 5 purchases over the first month consisted of four Piedmont 42's and a Bob Groom Tolstoi Back. In my second month on my ninth purchase, I bought a Bob Groom Polar Bear. Nine cards in and i'm playing with the idea of a Front/Back combo set. I'm currently at 1249 different Front/Back combo's and that number has no Piedmont's except for Factory 42's and no Sweet Caporals. Within the 1249 cards, I'm ten cards away from a 520 set. The only complete back sub-set within the 1249 is the Old Mill SL set. I'm 5 away from a Sovereign 460 set, 3 being super prints and 2 others. I'm 40 away from a Polar Bear set and have the Demmitt St Louis. One sub-set I have that I don't count in my 1249 different cards is the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print" Scraps, 27 different cards including Cobb Bat Off. When these were listed on ebay, only 27 different cards showed up even though I believe it is a 28 card set. I believe this is the most complete set intact. I also know David Hall has a decent amount of the set too but don't know which ones he's missing. All I can say is its been a fun 7 years since starting this set and I owe Net54 and the experts for much of it. Thank you.

[Bpm0014]

OK, I'll post mine. Used to collect cards when I was younger in the late 80's. My last name is Mullen. At that time I bought a T206 Mullen portrait for about $20 and a Tinker, Evers, Chance for about $25 each (the same missing red Tinker in my avatar). Fast forward to 2007 when I happened to go thru some old things and I found these 4 cards. I was just getting started with playing poker and I told myself that it would be a fun project to try and put the set together. Fast forward to today and I'm at 506. My set consists of some rare backs (Lenox), 2 signed (both Larry Doyle), a scrap (Lucky Wright), a blank back, a card with a ton of extra color that bled all over the card, and a Harry Davis Phila. Amep (instead of Phila. Amer.). My set (and my overall collection) has solely been built with poker and sports betting winnings. Although I'm up a good amount overall, it hasn't been all smooth sailing (as I've had to sell 2 green Cobb's, a signed Larry Doyle, a Lenox, and a couple others hahaha).