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  #1  
Old 08-25-2015, 08:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Theory regarding T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) series

The following theory regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) series of 37 subjects is based on my long term experience hunting down these AB 350 cards; and, especially
the Nicholls (batting) card and the Stahl (glove) card. These two cards have proven to be considerably tougher to find with this AB 350 back than the other 35 guys in this group.

My theory is quite simple....American Litho. (ALC) started printing 36 subjects which included Nicholls. Simon Nicholls retired from MLB on April 25, 1910. Some months later, ALC
replaced Nicholls on their printing plate with Stahl's image. Researching the POP report data of these 37 guys with AB 350 backs results in numbers ** that support my contention.

Furthermore, our good buddy Johnny V. who has completed this AB 350 sub-set has had similar experiences collecting these cards as I have had.

I welcome any additional inputs related to this topic.



.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................... Nichols (1st printing) later replaced by Stahl

.
..

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) checklist.....37 confirmed subjects

Baker
Bender (no trees)
Burch (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Wagner (bat on right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


** Note
While I realize POP report data cannot be considered as absolute, I think it's fair to say that the POP data is representative of the relative availability of certain cards
with respect to other cards within a group.

Nicholls AB 350 POP report # (SGC + PSA) is 7.

Stahl AB 350 POP report # (SGC + PSA) is 8.

The average POP report # (SGC + PSA) of any of the remaining 35 subjects is 14 each.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 09-12-2015 at 07:27 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-25-2015, 09:28 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default Ted.........

that makes PERFECT sense

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  #3  
Old 08-25-2015, 09:55 PM
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Sounds good to me!

I still feel like 350 no frames are tougher than 460s...
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2015, 07:01 AM
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Default

Great insight Ted - as always.
Someone on another thread brought up a good question - why was the frame removed anyway?
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Last edited by jp1216; 08-26-2015 at 07:10 AM. Reason: added my pic
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2015, 10:15 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Hi Jon

That's an interesting question.


Let's start with the timeline of these AB 350, BROAD LEAF 350, CYCLE 350, and DRUM cards. American Litho started printing these backs in the Summer of 1910.
Perhaps, the DRUM's may have also continued into the Fall of 1910.





The timeline for the AB 350 (no frame) cards is circa Fall/Winter 1910. Finally, the AB 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards in the final T206 print runs..circa Feb 1911.
Note that all 4 of these backs are without frames.







Now, the timeline for the PIEDMONT 460, Factory 42 cards is somewhat uncertain. I think it possibly was in late 1910, since all 63 subjects in the 350/460 series
were printed. But, only a dozen (or so) 460-only subjects were printed with PIEDMONT 460, Factory 42 backs.






TED Z
.
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2015, 12:14 PM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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+1 I see 460's pop up way more often than 350 NF's. Definitely an undervalued/under-appreciated back.

And in regards to why they removed the frame, I would bet that they were having too many issues with the frame continually being cut off as the cards were slimmed for packaging. It's somewhat rare to find a perfectly centered AB 350 Framed back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Sounds good to me!

I still feel like 350 no frames are tougher than 460s...

Last edited by The Nasty Nati; 08-26-2015 at 12:18 PM.
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  #7  
Old 08-26-2015, 02:50 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default ahhhh.....

it's great to have the whole sub set
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  #8  
Old 08-26-2015, 08:19 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Hey Pete

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Sounds good to me!

I still feel like 350 no frames are tougher than 460s...

Sorry to differ with you......but, quantitatively speaking there are twice the number of AB 460 subjects than the AB 350 NF subjects. And, this factor in itself tends
to give one the impression that AB 460's are more available. Resulting in some collectors considering AB 350 NF being tougher than the 460's.

NOT TRUE ! ....guys .

Trust me.....it has taken me 9 years to try to complete a fairly nice condition AB 460 sub-set. And, I am still 4 cards shy of attaining the 74 cards in it.

While it took me only one year to acquire 36 of the 37 cards (missing Johnson) of the AB 350 NF sub-set.

Yes, there are some easier cards to find in the AB 460 set. Namely, the 12 cards that I refer to as the "Exclusive 12". But, there are at least 24 or more cards that
are extremely tough to find in this set. Certainly much more tougher than any of the AB 350 NF guys.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-28-2015 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #9  
Old 08-26-2015, 08:24 PM
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no argument from me, Ted...I have not done a fraction of the research you have in this area...just my general perception from my limited experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Sorry to differ with you......but, quantitatively speaking there are twice the number of AB 460 subjects than the AB 350 NF subjects. And, this factor in itself tends
to give one the impression that AB 460's are more available. Resulting in some collectors considering AB 350 NF being tougher than the 460's....NOT SO. guys !

Trust me.....it has taken me 9 years to try to complete a fairly nice condition AB 460 sub-set. And, I am still 4 cards shy of attaining the 74 cards in it.

While it took me only one year to acquire 36 cards (missing Johnson) of the AB 350 NF set.

Yes, there are some easier cards to find in the AB 460 set.....namely the 12 cards that I refer to as the "Exclusive 12". But, there are at least two dozen cards that
are extremely tough to find in this set. Certainly much more tougher than any of the AB 350 NF guys.


TED Z
.
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2015, 10:24 PM
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Ted,
Thanks for sharing your extensive experience and knowledge about this set. As always, much appreciated.
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  #11  
Old 08-27-2015, 07:58 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Theory regarding T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) series

Thanks guys....I really appreciate your expressions of support.


TED Z
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  #12  
Old 08-27-2015, 07:59 AM
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Thanks Ted as always for you input in this forum.
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  #13  
Old 08-27-2015, 09:36 AM
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That was my contention that they removed the frame because they were cutting off frame when making the AB's more narrow.
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  #14  
Old 08-27-2015, 11:58 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Response to Jon P....B. Schneider....Jim P

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post


Let's start with the timeline of these AB 350, BROAD LEAF 350, CYCLE 350, and DRUM cards. American Litho started printing these backs in the Summer of 1910.
Perhaps, the DRUM's may have also continued into the Fall of 1910.





The timeline for the AB 350 (no frame) cards is circa Fall/Winter 1910.

The timeline for the AB 460, LENOX and UZIT cards is circa Feb/Mar 1911.

Note that all 4 of these backs are without frames.







TED Z
I do not think the "American Beauty frame concern" has anything to do with why American Litho. (ALC) eliminated the frame from their 2nd and 3rd AB series of cards.
My above repeated post illustrates what in my opinion explains the lack of frames on the 2nd & 3rd AB issues. The missing frame designs of the AB 350 NF and AB 460
backs are consistent with ALC's design of their LENOX and UZIT backs. The AB 460, LENOX & UZIT advertisements were printed at the tail-end of the T206 production.



TED Z
.
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  #15  
Old 08-28-2015, 02:48 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Furthermore......

My guess is that American Litho started cutting the AB's thinner in anticipation of the narrower AB packs. It's my understanding that the
narrower (8-cigarette) American Beauty packs were to be introduced sometime in 1911.


. .









The widths of the AB cards vary all over the place. This Davy Jones is the "fattest" of my AB cards (it is exactly the width of a normal T206 card).


..v.................... 1 7/16" ......................v
.





While AB 460 cards consistently tend to be the narrowest of the cards in the three American Beauty series......

.




TED Z
.
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  #16  
Old 08-30-2015, 10:33 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) population data......

POPulation report data (SGC + PSA) for those of you who are interested in numbers.

POP #....Subject

11...........Baker
20...........Bender (no trees)
20...........Burch (fielding)
10...........Conroy (bat)
17...........Crawford (bat)
13...........Doolan (bat)
15...........Downey (bat)
11...........Larry Doyle (bat)
13...........Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
20...........Griffith (bat)
13...........Jennings (two hands)
17...........Johnson (pitching)
15...........Jordan (bat)
11...........Konetchy (glove low)
11...........Lake (no ball)
22...........Leifield (bat)
11...........Magee (bat)
19...........Manning (pitching)
15...........McQuillan (bat)
13...........Mullin (bat)
14...........Murphy (bat)
_7...........Nichols (bat)
13...........Overall (yellow sky)
11...........Pelty (vertical)
13...........Pfeister (throwing)
14...........Reulbach (no glove)
12...........Rucker (throwing)
14...........Seymour (throwing)
_8...........Stahl (glove
14...........Steinfeldt (bat)
15...........Street (catching)
12...........Sweeney (fielding)
16...........Wagner (bat on right)
18...........Wilhelm (bat)
18...........Willetts
22...........Willis (bat)
16...........Wiltse (pitching)




TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-30-2015 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Corrected Conroy's POP #.
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  #17  
Old 08-30-2015, 10:40 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default ted....

wow!!! great data
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  #18  
Old 08-30-2015, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
POPulation report data (SGC + PSA) for those of you who are interested in numbers.

POP #....Subject

11...........Baker
20...........Bender (no trees)
20...........Burch (fielding)
14...........Conroy (bat)
17...........Crawford (bat)
13...........Doolan (bat)
15...........Downey (bat)
11...........Larry Doyle (bat)
13...........Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
20...........Griffith (bat)
13...........Jennings (two hands)
17...........Johnson (pitching)
15...........Jordan (bat)
11...........Konetchy (glove low)
11...........Lake (no ball)
22...........Leifield (bat)
11...........Magee (bat)
19...........Manning (pitching)
15...........McQuillan (bat)
13...........Mullin (bat)
14...........Murphy (bat)
_7...........Nichols (bat)
13...........Overall (yellow sky)
11...........Pelty (vertical)
13...........Pfeister (throwing)
14...........Reulbach (no glove)
12...........Rucker (throwing)
14...........Seymour (throwing)
_8...........Stahl (glove
14...........Steinfeldt (bat)
15...........Street (catching)
12...........Sweeney (fielding)
16...........Wagner (bat on right)
18...........Wilhelm (bat)
18...........Willetts
22...........Willis (bat)
16...........Wiltse (pitching)




TED Z
.
Hi Ted,

PSA didn't specify AB 350NF/460 until just recently so the 19 subjects that were printed with
both would be the combined population. (I have been thinking it might be fun
to do a 350/460 subset of these 19 with both backs).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Conroy%20AB%20350%20NF.jpg (68.4 KB, 214 views)
File Type: jpg Conroy%20AB%20460%20Front.jpg (69.5 KB, 214 views)

Last edited by Pat R; 08-30-2015 at 12:50 PM.
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  #19  
Old 08-30-2015, 01:04 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default Pat....

wow!!!

that's sounds wild!

btw....that would cut the pop's maybe in half shown??
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  #20  
Old 08-30-2015, 01:34 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Pat & Johnny

"Hi Ted,

PSA didn't specify AB 350NF/460 until just recently so the 19 subjects that were printed with
both would be the combined population.

Pat R."



Consider it done....I already took this into account.

Having (near) completed an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run (70 of 74 subjects) these past 9 years, I have developed my own population record of the AB 460 cards.

Thus, I deducted my AB 460 numbers from PSA's un-identified AB numbers to obtain the AB 350 NF numbers.

Trust me....the AB 460 component of PSA's un-identified numbers is in many cases negligible. The following subjects have less than 4 samples of AB 460 cards......

Conroy
Manning
McQuilllan
Overall
Pelty
Steinfeldt
Wagner
Wilhelm
Willis
Wiltse



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-30-2015 at 01:54 PM. Reason: Added info.
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  #21  
Old 08-30-2015, 05:07 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Correction in Conroy's AB 350NF POP #.

My original number for Conroy in the AB 350NF POP report # list in Post #16 was incorrect. It has been corrected to reflect 10 samples.
I forgot to account for the number of AB 460 samples within the un-identified #'s.

Conroy has proven to be tougher than most AB350NF and AB 460 cards.







TED Z
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  #22  
Old 09-03-2015, 05:17 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Default Spitballing

Ted,

Very interesting.

Nichols also stands-out as being the only subject--so far as we know--extant with AB350 No Frame but not with any “460 Subjects” back.

I have always grouped Nichols with Doyle (N.Y.), Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) and Smith (Chicago White Cap). These five subjects share an identical back profile, consisting of:

EPDG
Old Mill
Piedmont 350
Polar Bear
Sovereign 350 Apple Green
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30
and
Tolstoi

EXCEPT THAT Nichols’ back profile also includes:

AB 350 No Frame
and
Drum

All five of these subjects were shortprinted – and Nichols’ presence additionally with AB 350 No Frame and Drum does nothing to change that given the miniscule contribution of those two backs to the overall T206 population (not to mention Nichols’ apparent shortprinting with AB 350 No Frame).

Not sure where to go with this, except to add that if Nichols was pulled early from printing with AB 350 No Frame he would likely have also been pulled early from printing with Drum – although given the ridiculously low quantity of Drums known to start with, who could tell if Nichols was a Drum shortprint?

I would expect that the confirmed example of Nichols Drum is unique. Can you confirm?

Scot

Edited to Add: I see a Nichols Drum SGC A was sold in a Hunt Auctions lot in 2007.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_67.html

Anyone know of any other copies?

Last edited by sreader3; 09-03-2015 at 05:51 PM.
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  #23  
Old 09-03-2015, 05:46 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Adding a visual . . .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T206 Nichols Batting AB350 Front.jpg (77.6 KB, 194 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Nichols Batting AB350 Back.jpg (77.5 KB, 195 views)
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  #24  
Old 09-03-2015, 11:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Hi Scot

Very nice Nicholls....it's the nicest one I've seen with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 back.

There appears to be two Nicholls cards graded with DRUM backs.

SGC A

SGC10



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Still searching for these 4 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.
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  #25  
Old 09-04-2015, 12:01 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Thanks for the reply Ted.

I have never been able to understand why Nichols was printed with AB 350 No Frame (albeit in limited quantities) and Drum when Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) and those other short-printed guys (who were meant to be 350/460s but never made it to 460) weren't.

Let me know if you think of anything.

Last edited by sreader3; 09-04-2015 at 12:03 PM.
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  #26  
Old 09-04-2015, 01:49 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Scot

Connie Mack traded Simon Nicholls to Cleveland Dec 1909. He played only 3 games for Clev. in April of 1910, then retired from MLB.

Given the timeline of the Summer/Fall of 1910 for late DRUM print runs, I can understand why Nicholls was printed with DRUM.

Furthermore, it has become apparent that the 37 subjects printed with DRUM backs were also printed with AB 350NF backs.


Now the scenario for these 3 guys is......

Joe Doyle traded to Cinci.(May 1910); career ends June 25, 1910.
Red Kleinow (NY) traded to Boston May 1910
Frank Smith (white cap) traded to Boston in the Summer of 1910.

The status of this group of 3 was in a state of flux about the time ALC was planning the DRUM print run; therefore, they did not include them
in the DRUM print run.

But, I don't understand why Bob Rhoades was considered as a 350/460 series candidate, since his MLB career ended in Summer of 1909.



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 09-04-2015 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Added info.
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  #27  
Old 09-07-2015, 06:39 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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<< Connie Mack traded Simon Nicholls to Cleveland Dec 1909. He played only 3 games for Clev. in April of 1910, then retired from MLB.

Given the timeline of the Summer/Fall of 1910 for late DRUM print runs, I can understand why Nicholls was printed with DRUM.

Furthermore, it has become apparent that the 37 subjects printed with DRUM backs were also printed with AB 350NF backs. >>

Here's a far-fetched theory.

ALC, in the early stage of 350/460 production, wanted to take Doyle (Hands Above) out of production entirely since they knew they had gotten his team (league) wrong and had to change the caption by scratching "Nat'l" from the plate.

BUT if they wanted to drop Doyle (Hands Above) from further production, they ALSO had to drop other subjects from his sheet(s) to make those sheet(s) fit. (whatever "fit" might mean -- that is beyond the scope of this post).

So, ALC went about looking at the career trajectories of all the players on the Doyle (Hands Above) sheet(s).

In the end, they elected to drop Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) since his career ended in 1909; and Nichols since his career ended in very early 1910; and Smith (Chicago White Cap) and Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) since they had been traded in the 1910 season.

But, since Smith and Kleinow (unlike Rhoades and Nichols) were still playing (albeit for different teams), ALC reintroduced them as Smith (Chicago and Boston) and Kleinow (Boston) in the 460 series.

Scot

Edited to add: Forgot to mention in my hypothetical that by the time the decision was made, at least one of the Nichols sheets (assuming he was printed on multiple sheets) had already undergone a short production run with AB 350 NF and Drum.

Last edited by sreader3; 09-07-2015 at 07:03 PM.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2015, 11:04 PM
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I like to see Manning's name on that list.

Ted, Scot, and others, thanks for having this conversation publically, I find threads like this one to be very helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
[b]
Trust me....the AB 460 component of PSA's un-identified numbers is in many cases negligible. The following subjects have less than 4 samples of AB 460 cards......

Conroy
Manning
McQuilllan
Overall
Pelty
Steinfeldt
Wagner
Wilhelm
Willis
Wiltse



TED Z
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T206 Manning AB 460 c compress.jpg (74.1 KB, 92 views)
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  #29  
Old 09-12-2015, 07:03 AM
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Nice Manning Bryan.
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  #30  
Old 09-12-2015, 08:16 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Hi Bryan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobu View Post
I like to see Manning's name on that list.

Ted, Scot, and others, thanks for having this conversation publically, I find threads like this one to be very helpful.

I appreciate your kind words. And, it was nice meeting you at the Net54 dinner in Chicago.

The AB 350 NF card of Manning is not that tough.....But, you are right about Manning's AB 460 card. Several years went by before I acquired
this one for my AB 460 run (thanks to Brian Weisner).


.




TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Still searching for these 4 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.
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  #31  
Old 09-13-2015, 11:06 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Hi Scot

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreader3 View Post
<< Connie Mack traded Simon Nicholls to Cleveland Dec 1909. He played only 3 games for Clev. in April of 1910, then retired from MLB.

Given the timeline of the Summer/Fall of 1910 for late DRUM print runs, I can understand why Nicholls was printed with DRUM.

Furthermore, it has become apparent that the 37 subjects printed with DRUM backs were also printed with AB 350NF backs. >>

Here's a far-fetched theory.

ALC, in the early stage of 350/460 production, wanted to take Doyle (Hands Above) out of production entirely since they knew they had gotten his team (league) wrong and had to change the caption by scratching "Nat'l" from the plate.

BUT if they wanted to drop Doyle (Hands Above) from further production, they ALSO had to drop other subjects from his sheet(s) to make those sheet(s) fit. (whatever "fit" might mean -- that is beyond the scope of this post).

So, ALC went about looking at the career trajectories of all the players on the Doyle (Hands Above) sheet(s).

In the end, they elected to drop Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) since his career ended in 1909; and Nichols since his career ended in very early 1910; and Smith (Chicago White Cap) and Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) since they had been traded in the 1910 season.

But, since Smith and Kleinow (unlike Rhoades and Nichols) were still playing (albeit for different teams), ALC reintroduced them as Smith (Chicago and Boston) and Kleinow (Boston) in the 460 series.

Scot

Edited to add: Forgot to mention in my hypothetical that by the time the decision was made, at least one of the Nichols sheets (assuming he was printed on multiple sheets) had already undergone a short production run with AB 350 NF and Drum.

A lot of stuff here, Scot.

I'll give you a call this week, and we can discuss our theory's on this subject a little more in depth.


TED Z
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