Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Gee....there is a lot of "con-jecturing" going on here regarding this rare and highly desirable T-card.
So, let us first review what factual stuff is known about this unique Ty Cobb card.



Factory 33 - 4th Dist. of N.C.


1st....the caption is printed with Brown ink (similar to all T206's). So, this tells us it had to be printed prior to 1912.
So, in my opinion, it bears no resemblance to a T213-2 (or 3) card.....as some have alluded to. From 1912 to 1916,
American Litho. printed the captions on their T-cards with Blue ink.
Furthermore, in support of the 1911 timeline is the Ty Cobb (back) card in the Senator Russell's original collection.
My research has shown that he collected all his T-cards in 1910 to 1911.

2nd....in 1911, ATC production was transferred to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC....Factory 42, 4th District.
The Ty Cobb back identifies Factory 33 in Durham, NC. This Factory still remains a mystery; however, it is consistent
with ATC's continuing production of American Beauty, Piedmont, and Sweet Caporal cigarettes in Durham.

3rd....Speaking about cigarettes, it has been a asserted that this Ty Cobb card was inserted in tin cans advertising
Ty Cobb Tobacco. Not so sure about this, since contained in those tins was Cut Plug Tobacco. And, the back of this
Ty Cobb card advertises "Smoking Tobacco".....meaning a cigarette brand.

4th....The quotation marks in "Ty Cobb" on the back signify that the Copyright was pending at the time of this card's
printing. This leads me to believe that the Ty Cobb tobacco was an experimental brand; and, it did not succeed (per-
haps, due to the break-up of ATC at the end of 1911). And, that may explain the very limited printing of this card.

So, let's continue this debate ?

Those are my thoughts....let's hear your's ? ?


TED Z

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Posted By: David Smith

Ted Z,

I have NOTHING factual to add to this post. However, in my mnd, I think it would be cool to find out that these cards were specially printed and were used as "tickets" for admission to a party commemorating the introduction of Ty Cobb brand tobacco products (which, for some reason, never got off the ground).

To me this would explain why:

1) There have been no Ty Cobb brand cigarette boxes found

2) There are no tobacco stains on the cards like you would probably expect to find if they were inserted into tins containing scrap or loose leaf tobacco.

3) Why there are not many of these cards in existance.

4) Why the majority of these cards have been found in one small geographical area and why five (I think) were found in one person's possession.

I can just imagine a grand party being held in a Georgia mansion with VIP's in attendance. I can also imagine these cards being used as admission tickets and some of them being left behind. I can then imagine a young boy, who lived in the house, coming downstairs the next morning and finding some of these cards lying around on tables or the floor.

May be unrealistic but since there is no real hard proof of how or why these cards came into being, it is just as plausible as any other explanation.

So there is my fantasy of how and why these cards were made,

David

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Posted By: Richard

Somewhat related:



If I am a Ty Cobb collector and wanted to collect the rarest Red Portrait Ty Cobb cards, where would the "Ty Cobb Back" rank considering just T206 backs (ignore T213, T214 and T215).



Certainly Brown Lenox and Drum are rarer (less than 12). What about the other backs? Broadleaf, Uzit, Red Hindu, etc?



Edited: Moved this question to a new thread because it is getting buried here.

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

the implication being that it wasn't solely a chewing tobacco. As far as I know the Mayo football players and Yum Yum baseball cards of the 19th century came in tins - as did the later Fatima cards and the Lucky strike bridge favors. There are still a couple of cards for whom the packaging is unknown that definitively held cards including the mono (or mino forget which), drum (forget the label on a certain site and the sacks - no way), hindu (ads only), american beauty (a CORRECT pack), and others. The Cobb/Cobb cards and tins are scarce although I don't think that means they necessarily go together. I honestly believe it makes no difference what semi-artificial group you put the Cobb/Cobb in - the exercise for the purists I guess. If it is in fact found glossy - I'd surmise it was as protection from tobacco. If found in both states and in such limited quantities - I'd say it was an experiment. I always think about the Pirate cards when I think of this card as I believe there's a reasonable chance they were never actually distributed in ANY package. The date issue seems quite important - I'd be less concerned with the printing color as there could be many reasons for that. I have seen many green autographs of his so the back might reflect an affinty for the color? Has the ink found to be the same as used on the sovereign or AB cards? I'm gonna have to read the applicable threads over many times I fear until you guys come to a conclusion Perhaps one day a diary or ledger entry will surface and clear it all up but you guys are terrific and I have faith.....

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Posted By: Anonymous

A name cannot be protected with a copyright. A brand name cannot be protected with a copyright. I imagine that "Ty Cobb" distinguishes the supposed brand from Ty Cobb the person. A brand may enjoy trademark protection. As I recall from my old econ I/O courses, as long as the owner of a trademark acts to prevent a trademark from entering common usage, no other firm may use the brand name in its own product name. Anyhow, I like the idea that the quotes support the possibility of an actual product.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well, your "fantasy" regarding this Ty Cobb card is as plausible as any....in the light of what little we know about it.

I certainly have my theories regarding it. But, I continue to "dig" into it. One fact that is puzzling is that no amount
of research in the ATC records lists the Ty Cobb tobacco brand. At least, I haven't found anything yet.

Thanks, you always post some interesting stuff regarding T-cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Perhaps, I meant "Trademark", rather than "Copyright"....it was after midnite when I typed that post last nite.

But, then can you explain to me why then the 1910 Coupon card has its brand name in quotes...."COUPON".


...........1910 issue........


As, it has been my understanding that the Trademark for the new Coupon (Mild) Cigarettes brand was pending when
the American Lithographic Co. issued this card in 1910. And, as is obvious, the " " are not there in the T213 (2 & 3)
cards, since this brand was established by 1914.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ted,

You left out a few things...

The Ty Cobb cards have the same dimensions as the white border T206 cards.

But you also omitted that the Ty Cobb cards all have a glossy front, a finish atop the surface of the card. None of the white border T206s have that. The peculiarities you listed were all consistencies with T206, as if you're lobbying that the Ty Cobb cards should be with them.

Almost all other T206 cards were issued with a variety of backs, not just one. (I know, Demmitt and O'Hara). But there is no back in T206 that is associated with only one front, which is the what you have with the Ty Cobb cards.

The cards all seem to have come from Georgia. T206s were distributed in dozens of states.



I like the card. It would have been neat to have obtained one years ago, but today the cost would be too much. Still, I don't, and never have, considered it a T206. And Ted, while you didn't specifically say that you think the Ty Cobb cards should be included, that seems to be what you're advocating.

Good thread old buddy!

Frank W.

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Posted By: Matt

Ted - any way to look up the trademark application records?

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: Shawn

Ted,

You said that the Liggett & Myers Co. remains a mystery in your original post... What do you mean by that?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I just re-read my initial post here, and I can see how one might conclude that I have changed my prior thinking.
And, that now I am suggesting this Ty Cobb card is part of the T206 set.

Not so....I'm still in the school of thought that considers this Ty Cobb as a unique card. I am simply trying to stir
up some more discussion on this subject. Hopefully, we come up with some new thought-provoking stuff.

The fact that this tobacco product was produced in the "mysterious" Factory 33, sets this Cobb card apart from
all the T206 cards.
I think the key here is, if we could find some substantial info on this unique Factory in Durham (NC), we might get
a better understanding of this "Ty Cobb" tobacco product; and therefore, we can arrive at an intelligent conclusion.

So far, I do not think that Factory #33 has been found on any other T-card....BB or Non-Sports.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I don't believe I said...."the Liggett & Myers Co. remains a mystery". The L&M plant was situated in Factory 42 in Durham,
North Carolina.

But, I said "Factory 33 in Durham, NC. This Factory still remains a mystery".

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the Ty Cobb back was part of a short-lived promotion within a small geographic area in the state of Georgia. Due to the popularity of the T206 set, the company realized by duplicating the look of a T206 the Ty Cobb backs would be eagerly sought, thus promoting the brand.

I think it was a point of purchase thing: buy a pack (or tin) of the Ty Cobb brand, and the tobacconist would hand you one of the cards. It had to be a relatively small promotion, based on the few surviving examples today.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Wasn't one of the Red Cross issues names printed in brown ink?

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Posted By: PC

According to the Old Cardboard site, the brown letter Red Cross cards are 1910-1912, with the blue letters starting in 1912 (through 1913). So, it appears brown letter ATC cards appear post-1911.

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Posted By: dan mckee

awesome! that covers my only debate there. Oh well, I tried.

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Posted By: Shawn

Ted,

You are right... Sorry about that. I did find this article, not sure if it is any help but you never know! I only provided half of the article, but the full is in the link below.



http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A04EEDD173CE633A2575BC2A9679C946396D6CF

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You asked......
"Wasn't one of the Red Cross issues names printed in brown ink?"

Yes, the 1st Red Cross cards (T215-1) have Brown ink captions and it's initial issue date is 1910.

The Type 2 Red Cross cards were issued in 1912-14 and have Blue captions.

TED Z

DAN......I was recently at a model train and gun show at the new OAKS, PA Expo Center. It is a
huge facility....and, you can drive in to your exact booth location.

So, I ask you....why didn't the new owners of the Philly Show set us up at this facility ?
I'm sure it would have cost less than the Valley Forge Center.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You imagined......

"I can just imagine a grand party being held in a Georgia mansion with VIP's in attendance. I can also imagine these
cards being used as admission tickets and some of them being left behind.I can then imagine a young boy, who lived
in the house, coming downstairs the next morning and finding some of these cards lying around on tables or the floor."

And, perhaps this "young boy" could have been Richard Russell, who was 14 years old in 1911 and an avid BB fan and
T-card collector.
However, Russell was in Military School about 100 miles away from Atlanta. I can imagine, though, that this imaginary
young boy may have been a friend of Russell's. And, what I've read about Russell, he was a serious T-card collector,
who would have traded a bunch of his Old Mills (T210's) for this Ty Cobb card.

Just imagine this trade....Russell's Old Mill Joe Jackson and Casey Stengel for the Ty Cobb back card.


Anyhow, I like your thinking.


TED Z

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Posted By: David Smith

Thank you, Ted.

My idea fantasy idea went some what along these lines;

The ATC was going to introduce the new Ty Cobb brand of tobacco and wanted some good publicity. So they decided to hold a special party for VIP's only. Once this idea was annnounced, someone in the Marketing Department (or maybe Cobb himself) thought it would be an even better idea if the party was held in Georgia, that the tobacco would get its debut there (in a limited geographical area) and that special Ty Cobb cards could be printed up and used as tickets for the event.

So as NOT to be confused with regular white border cards, these special cards were printed with a glossy front, a Ty Cobb back in green ink and a factory number that did NOT ever have any cards associated with it.

Think about it, what profession was Cobb's Father in? Wasn't he a Judge or something? How about Senator Russell's Father? With Cobb being a famous baseball player from Georgia who had a prominant Father, wouldn't it be realistic for him to want to debut his own brand of tobacco back home and do so with a ball or party where only the upper class of Georgia would attend?

All of these things are plausible and would explain why Sentor Russell had a card in his collection and why five of these cards were found in one family's possession.

Then again, I am probably totally off with this whole idea. Wouldn't be the first time.....

David

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for that newspaper clipping. I'm tracking down some more Tobacco Co. situated in the North Carolina area.

TED Z

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Posted By: dan mckee

Where is Oaks in relation to Philly? I think they wanted to get as close to Philly as possible Ted. It is more expensive but I think we will all fair better in the long run. You just have to dig out some of that great stuff you have and let me see your table long before the show opens! Dan.

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Posted By: Shawn

Not sure if anyone has seen this... Below is what appears to be a list of companys who attended the 1915 expo in San Fran. Notice on the left the first mention of Liggett & Myers. It gives a list of plants and there cities that are represented. After that it gives a break-down of what each plant and corresponding city produced. Notice that there are two listings for Durham NC! Obviously it shows the cigarette brands, but it also shows the granulated and cut plug brands also.... I am not sure, but does the "Ty Cobb Granulated Cut Plug" brand "tin" state where it was made? It certainly seems it could have been made in Durham...

I have attached the first page just to show the publication.

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Posted By: Shawn

It also appears that there were two Tobacco companies in Durham during the years 1909-191?... "Blackwells Durham Tobacco Co." and "W. Duke Sons & Co." Is there a known "Blackwells" card? The Blackwells branch was owned by "The American Tobacco Co." and the Dukes was owned by "Liggett & Myers " during this time.

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Posted By: J Hull

I suspect Factory 33 was the old Blackwell factory in downtown Durham, most famous for producing the Bull Durham brand of tobacco. The factory mostly produced (maybe only produced) granulated smoking tobacco products. There are a TON of great photographs of the factory building and its warehouses and annexes out in various places on the Internet.

These are ATC's circa 1909 brands of granulated smoking tobacco that were produced in Durham. The factory number on any of these packages should be able to confirm whether No. 33 was the Blackwell factory. I believe Duke's Mixture was the most successful of any of these and thus has the most surviving packages.


Bob White
Bristol Club
Canvas Back
Cherry
Drum Granulated
Duke's Mixture
Eureka
Geranium Rose
Greenback
May Queen
Recruit
Seal Skin
Uncle Ned (also produced in St. Louis)
Victory Granulated

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Posted By: Shawn

If you notice on the pages I posted above, there is a cut plug brand that was produced by the Liggett & Myers Dukes branch: "Pick Burley"
I cannot find anything on this brand???

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

"Pick" tobacco - burley refers to the "cut"

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Just when I think I can't afford to own one, here we go!!!

http://tinyurl.com/8r75n2


But now that I understand that Ted and I are in agreement that it doesn't belong in T206, I might not bid...

Thank you, Ted.

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Posted By: Wesley

That makes it 13 or 14 known.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

It's the rare blue print version! Sheeesh.....

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Dave, you have the eagle eye!! And did you see that unique Virgina factory?? The others have factory 33 in North Carolina.

Ya know, as I look at that card I think it isn't a T206 either!

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Posted By: Shawn

Here is a link to a pack of "Pick" plug cut tobacco from the Liggett & Myers Co. As you can see, it shows Factory 42... It also says series of 1910 on the stamp.





http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,1669295.html#image3>

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for all the info you have presented. I am still researching it. It would be nice to find some tobacco product or
T-card (sports or non-sports) with Factory 33 printed on it.
The only such item that we know of, is the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco Tin. Printed on it is Factory 33, 4th District, NC.

I am skeptical, however, that the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card was ever intended to be in this tin. The advertising on this tin
depicts Cobb in a batting pose, rather than his Red portrait. Also, there is no advertising on this tin stating the "King of
the Smoking Tobacco World" (as the back of the card states). Usually, the premium (T-card) associated with a tobacco
product is printed with the same advertising.

TED Z

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Posted By: Shawn

No problem... I have been digging into the "factory 33" quite a bit, but the best I have come up with so far is a Factory 33 in Tampa, Florida that made cigars. I will keep searching. Can you email me or post a picture of the tin? I would like to see a good pic of where it says "factory 33" and the rest of the tin.

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Posted By: leon

Here's a pretty accurate reprint of the Ty Cobb card.



TED Z


edited scan size

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Shawn,

Here is a photo of the Ty Cobb tin from my website:



- Jon

======================================
For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

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Posted By: John Moran

Nevermind, dupe of Ted's post

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Posted By: leon

I think it's a T213-1 (you guys would make everything a T206)

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Posted By: Scot

There is no record of an attempt to register TY COBB as a federal trademark for smoking tobacco or cigarettes.

The ATC brands that were (eventually) registered are:

SWEET CAPORAL, registered in 1895 based on alleged first use of mark in 1878

PIEDMONT, registered in 1922 based on alleged first use of mark in 1905

I do find it interesting that "Ty Cobb" and "Coupon" were both put in quotes. Suggests to me that the same back designer may have been at work.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thank you guy, that explains why my "Ty Cobb Tobacco" search has been to no avail....No Trademark.

Good searching, Scot.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

....Try again guy, the 1910 Coupon Cobb is already accounted for....







Regards,

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Have to differ with you....the overall artwork is different when you compare the Coupon-1 with
the Ty Cobb back.

I still think the quotes had to be there because these two brands were not Trademarked at the
time of their card's printing.

I might be corrected on this, but I think Coupon was a new T-brand in 1910, hence the quotes.
By 1914 (T213-2), the Coupon brand was established.




TED Z

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Posted By: Shawn

It would be nice to see all sides of the "Ty Cobb" tin. All of the wording etc. I looked at your web site and I am guessing that it is not possible to get such images?

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Posted By: leon

You know I was just messin' with ya'. For the record, my belief is that the Cobb/Cobb back is not a T206 card. My reasoning is solely due to the characteristics of the card itself. No T206's have glossy fronts.....


changed gramma'

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Posted By: dan mckee

I agree Leon, great card but its on animal.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guy....and I was just messin' back with ya'

But, when I see you in Cleveland this Summer, I will show you my GLOSSY T206 Downs. Scanning it here, of course,
will not shows its gloss.

So, you cannot say for sure that T206's are not "glossy".

Conversely, it's my understanding that not all Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb cards have a gloss on them.

TED Z

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Posted By: J Hull

Ted,

I like your explanation for the quotation marks around Coupon on the T213-1's. If Coupon was a relatively new brand, that makes sense. I'm not sure the quotes are signifying a lack of a registered trademark as much as they represent an attempt to create a trademark through use. In 1910 I think pretty much every purchaser of cigarettes knew that many brands inserted coupons that could be collected and submitted to the company in exchange for "prizes." I'm sure you've seen some of the catalogs from the era detailing the products that could be acquired if one accumulated enough coupons. Coupon the brand was trying to market itself on that notion -- if you buy Coupon brand you will get coupons for prizes. So the quotation marks probably were an attempt to distinguish a trade usage for Coupon as a brand above and beyond the simple and recognized idea of paper tickets in cigarette packs. As you say, once the brand was more established, they dropped the quotation marks.

The same may well be true for the Ty Cobb brand. The brand is different from the man, even though it's an obvious attempt to capitalize on the man's fame and notoriety. So as a new brand, the quotation marks might be an attempt to build brand equity while of course still indicating that the brand should be associated with the idea of Ty Cobb the baseball player.


Jamie

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Nice post Jamie. I think you are right. "Coupon" and "Ty Cobb" are not fanciful terms (unlike "Sweet Caporal," for example) and thus the quotation marks were an attempt to make clear that these terms were being used as trademarks in this particular context and thereby build brand equity.

So, maybe the addition of quotation marks has more to do with the particular brand names than timing.

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

your elusive factory 33 4th N.C. on any of my tins or trade cards - have checked all the "T" nonsports cards - written to someone I know at the Duke museum in N.C. - and am doggedly chasing any lead I can find. Jon knows a few hardcore tobacco guys - I'm sure he's lit a fire there. My internet searches so far have been empty. I have at least 10 tobacco history type books and many tin books - they're fodder for my next step as unlikely only one product BRAND was manufactured there. Keeps those possible avenues for exploration coming! Plenty of time and willing to work! Sorta reminds me of the email I got with a guy what's got a sandwich board (only Ted the remembers those ) - he's panhandling - and he takes paypal

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1880nonsports

The elusive "Factory 33 4th District N.C." can be seen on the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin of Jon Canfield's scan on this thread.
It is faintly visible in the box on the lower left side of this tin.

So far, this tin and the red Ty Cobb card are the only items that have been found identifying this Factory.

TED Z