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  #1  
Old 10-05-2009, 03:08 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

Some years back, Art Martineau noted the difference in the color of the Sovereign backs. Most were printed with a normal green color,
and some with a lighter green color. Recently, Jim Rivera posted a thread regarding this lighter, "candy apple green" color variation of
certain SOVEREIGN backs.

In the SOVEREIGN print run, the subjects in the 350/460 series category are not identified as they are with the PIEDMONT or SWEET
CAPORAL backs (i.e., "350-460 Subjects"). The SOVEREIGN cards in these mid series are all printed as "SOVEREIGN 350 Subjects".

However, all 61 subjects in the 350/460 category exclusively have candy apple green backs. All the other 341 cards of the SOVEREIGN
set have a normal green colored back.

Recently, while looking over my complete SOVEREIGN set, I observed 5 more that have apple green backs. Scot Reader had predicted
that Kleinow & Smith would have apple green backs. Given this apple green pattern, I think we can be 100% certain that the following
5 subjects were intended to be 350/460 cards. However, American Litho. did not extend these 5 subjects into the 460 press runs due
to the following events......

Joe Doyle........................traded to Cinci.(May 1910); career ends June 25, 1910
Red Kleinow (NY)..............traded to Boston May 1910
Simon Nicholls (bat)..........traded to Clev (spring 1910); career ends May 1910
Bob Rhoades (arm ext.)......career ends Summer of 1909
Frank Smith (white cap).....traded to Boston in the Summer of 1910.


To summarize.....this subtle change in green color reveals to us, 100 years later, that American Litho. had originally planned to print 66
subjects in their 350/460 series. Further evidence of this fact is that none of these 5 additional subjects exist with the AB 350 (frame)
back. Which of course, if they did, would contradict this entire premise....since the AB 350 (frame) back is strictly found with 350-only
cards.

Therefore......
66 = 55 (350/460 subjects) + 6 super prints + (Doyle, Kleinow, Nicholls, Rhoades, Smith)


OK, so why the difference in ink color for this intermediate SOVEREIGN series of 66 cards ?

One possible explanation is that American Litho. started printing this series of 66 cards about the same time (Summer of 1910) when
they printed the AB 350 (frame) cards. As, a similar shade of green ink appears on them, too.

I'm not sure that this guess explains why....so, let's hear your guesses as to why ? ?


Four of the 19 HOFers in the 350/460 series

[linked image]
[linked image]
Green back of 150, 350 and 460 series cards
[linked image]
[linked image]

/\..................................The 5 intended subjects for the 350/460 series that were not printed with 460 backs................................../\


The 6 super-prints that are in the 350/460 series with SOV 350 backs have candy apple green backs.

[linked image]

TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 10-06-2009 at 02:18 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-05-2009, 06:03 PM
Rich Klein Rich Klein is offline
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Default I'm still waiting for Art's book

Wasn't he and Doug Allen supposed to print a T206 book years and years ago.
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  #3  
Old 10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
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Default apple

Ted,
it sure looks like the number 6 is mighty significant here!
Care to elaborate on your theory that 6 is the numerical key to T206s?!
i'm still incubating the AB apple color connection herein that you've raised.
great work.
best,
barry
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  #4  
Old 10-06-2009, 10:50 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

Barry A

Here you go, ole buddy....some more "candy apple green" cards for you. Four more HOFers from the 350/460 series cards
in my all-SOVEREIGN set.

Have to run now....I'll respond to your question later today.

In the meantime, I expect you to arrive at some plausible explanation for these candy apple green backs


[linked image]
350-only card for comparison
[linked image]

TED Z
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  #5  
Old 10-06-2009, 02:11 PM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
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Default apple

great pics,Ted.

no theories about the choice of color yet but am anxious to hear your take on the 6 Code for T206!!!

best,

barry
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2009, 07:52 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

Barry A

You asked......"but am anxious to hear your take on the 6 Code for T206"

It's not rocket science ole buddy.....it's simply in the numbers........

The four series are comprised of the following number of cards:

150 series = 156 subjects......note: Collins (batting) never issued
350 series = 270 subjects......see note below
460 series = 48 subjects
So Lge series = 48 subjects


The four sub-series are comprised of the following number of cards:

150-only = 12 subjects
Horiz. cards = 6 subjects
Texas Lgrs = 6 subjects
Super-prints = 6 subjects

By golly......all these numbers are exactly divisible by SIX.


NOTE......the 350/460 series was derived from the 350 series subjects. Originally, there were 66 candidates
intended to be extended into the 460 series. However, 3 of of these guys Major League careers ended, and
2 were traded to Boston. Therefore, 61 were actually printed with 460 series backs.


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 10-06-2009 at 08:05 PM.
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:44 PM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
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Default The T206 Code

I see it,ole friend!!
I bet your next step is to show how this code may well help us to decipher a key element in the printing of the actual sheets!
Continue, sir.

best,
barry
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  #8  
Old 10-07-2009, 03:29 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

This thread without a list of the T206 cards in the 350/460 series is not complete..........
so here is the checklist of all 66 subjects.

List of intended 5 subjects (from 350 series) that were not extended into the 460 series:

Joe Doyle
Kleinow (catching NY))
Nicholls (bat))
Rhoades (arm extended)
Frank Smith (white hat)

Checklist of the 61 subjects (from 350 series) that were extended into the 460 series:

Ames (hands over head)
Baker..............................HOF
Bender (no trees)..............HOF
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow potrait).......HOF......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)......................super-print
Chase (dark cap)...........................super-print
Cobb (red portrait).............HOF......super-print
Cobb (bat off)...................HOF
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)...................HOF
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky).........HOF.....super-print
Griffith (bat)......................HOF
Jennings (one hand)............HOF
Jennings (two hands)..........HOF
Johnson (pitching)..............HOF
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)...................HOF
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat).......................HOF
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap).........HOF.....super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)..................HOF
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)........................HOF
Willis (throwing).................HOF
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)..................HOF


TED Z
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2009, 04:23 PM
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Great thread Ted!
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  #10  
Old 10-08-2009, 06:53 PM
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Hi Ted.

Very nice find on Doyle, Nicholls, and Rhoades. I love coming to this board and finding insights like that. Freely shared, too.

I'd preface this all with a big Probably, but one implication is that these five cards, like the other 350-460 cards, were among the last 350 series cards designed and distributed. I mean, if we go on the presumption that the reason some 350 series cards were also part of the 460 series is that their period of production overlapped both series.

I still have more research to do, but I firmly believe that the 350 series was actually several waves of releases. The first 350 cards were those that had been first produced as 150 series cards, and the Southern Leaguers that we've previously identified as having been in the first batch of Southern League cards released. Then probably some of the Eastern League and American Association players and the rest of the Southern Leaguers and some of the Major Leaguers and then some more of each, and finally, those 350 series cards that were released again with 460 series cards and backs.

One day we'll have to have a proper thread on that topic, because understanding the sequence will help unlock two other T206 conundrums: the "logic" behind front/back combinations, and the way that the cards were laid out on sheets for printing. Well, they're all intertwined -- unlock one and you unlock them all.

Last edited by jimonym; 10-08-2009 at 06:54 PM.
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  #11  
Old 10-08-2009, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimonym View Post
Hi Ted.

One day we'll have to have a proper thread on that topic, because understanding the sequence will help unlock two other T206 conundrums: the "logic" behind front/back combinations, and the way that the cards were laid out on sheets for printing. Well, they're all intertwined -- unlock one and you unlock them all.
I'm not sure the sheet arrays will ever be known but Ted is zeroing in on how many cards were designed for each series and then printed with each brand. I suspect the "sheet logic" is really "pretzel logic" .

Last edited by toppcat; 10-08-2009 at 08:58 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-08-2009, 09:00 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Are the SOVEREIGN 6 super-prints the 1st 350/460 cards ?

Jamie

Very well stated, and here's one for you to ponder......are the 6 super prints with SOVEREIGN backs the very first
350/460 subjects ?


The 6 super-prints with SOVEREIGN 350 backs are moderately tough to find.

[linked image]
[linked image]

[linked image]




And, the same 6 super-prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs are very scarce.

[linked image]
[linked image]


[linked image]
[linked image]


[linked image]


TED Z
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2009, 11:26 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

Dave H

Thanks for the nice words, guy.

Regarding the subject of T206 sheets, this mystery is very puzzling to me......100 years later and all we have is a 5-card proof strip
of T206's as evidence of any semblance of a multi-card sheet or panel !

While we have uncovered complete (or partial) uncut sheets of most major BB card issues in the 20th century (e.g., all 10 complete
1933 Goudey sheets), it's very unusual that not even some thing as basic as an uncut 6-card array of T206's has surfaced.

Very....very strange, I say !

Regards,

TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 10-09-2009 at 12:08 PM.
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  #14  
Old 10-09-2009, 01:58 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Default "Apple Green" Sovereigns: Unresovled Questions

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your Net54 reporting on the apple green Sovereign 350s. Your discovery of J. Doyle and Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) with this back is very important in explaining why these subjects are more difficult than run of the mill 350-only subjects. I would venture to say that these two subjects [along with Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols and Smith (Chicago White Cap)] are probably at least 1.5X more difficult than garden variety 350/460 RP subjects, since about 2/3 of the 350/460 RP print run involved 350 series backs, while the other 1/3 addressed 460 series backs.

One thing that puzzles me is why the six 350/460 superprints are found with the apple green Sovereign 350 back rather than the forest green Sovereign 350 back. As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights, Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group (American Beauty 350 No Frame). We would thus expect the superprints to be found with the forest green Sovereign 350--not the apple green variety. Yet this does not appear to be the case. Any thoughts on this apparent anomaly?

Scot

Last edited by sreader3; 10-09-2009 at 01:59 PM.
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  #15  
Old 10-09-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Dave H

While we have uncovered complete (or partial) uncut sheets of most major BB card issues in the 20th century (e.g., all 10 complete
1933 Goudey sheets), it's very unusual that not even some thing as basic as an uncut 6-card array of T206's has surfaced.

Very....very strange, I say !

Regards,

TED Z
I still have hopes that someone will rip the walls out of a 1912 built house someday and find a few dozen sheets acting as insulation. That happened with some movie posters in PA years ago and they were worth a fortune.
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  #16  
Old 10-09-2009, 04:24 PM
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I always enjoy reading these threads. I swear I have so much knowledge dropped on me at one time I feel smarter after reading them! Thanks for sharing the info. Even though I don't collect T206s they are amazing reads!
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2009, 06:21 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Jamie....Scot....and, a lighter shade of Green

Consider the following......

In the Summer of 1910, the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (with FRAME) cards were first launched....192 subjects are found
with this back (including the 6 super-prints).
Is there a possible correlation between the light green color of the backs of the 66 cards in the SOVEREIGN "350/460"
series and the light green color of the FRAME design on the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 cards ?

Check out the scans of these backs....Am I imagining this, or were the light green SOVEREIGN backs printed with same
green ink as the AB frame design and the "Base Ball Series....350 Subjects" lettering ?

Continuing......however, the "AMERICAN BEAUTY CIGARETTES" lettering appears to be somewhat similar to the forest
green ink on the SOVEREIGN 350 card of Irv Young. I may be wrong, but I think the AB 350 backs were printed with 2
different shades of green.

Scot

If I recall correctly from your timeline, the general 350/460 cards were first launched Summer/Fall 1910.


Jamie

I like your theory that possibly explains how (or why) certain 350 series cards were selected to continue into the 460
series. However, Joe Doyle (intended 350/460 subject) appears to be an exception to this rule. Since the established
thinking on Doyle's card was that he was printed in the initial 350 series press run (re..Doyle error card).


[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]


TED Z
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  #18  
Old 10-09-2009, 06:52 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Scot R......6 super-prints

Responding to your......

"One thing that puzzles me is why the six 350/460 superprints are found with the apple green Sovereign 350 back
rather than the forest green Sovereign 350 back. As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs
otherwise exclusive tothe 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights,
Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group
(American Beauty 350 No Frame). We would thus expect the superprints to be found with the forest green Sove-
reign 350--not the apple green variety. Yet this does not appear to be the case. Any thoughts on this apparent
anomaly?"

Here goes my "wild" imagination again: the apple green backs found on the 6 super-prints with Sovereign 350 backs
is indicative of American Litho's initial decision to extend these six (very popular guys) into subsequent (460) series
and subsequent issues (T213's, T214 and T215).

The one puzzling factor regarding the 6 super-prints that bugs me is....why two Chase poses ?

Instead of the Chase (dark cap), they should have Tinker's portrait card.


TED Z
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2009, 08:06 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Dave (toppcat)......

Your story........
"I still have hopes that someone will rip the walls out of a 1912 built house someday and find a few dozen sheets
acting as insulation. That happened with some movie posters in PA years ago and they were worth a fortune."

reminded me of........
My experience back in 1985. Bob, owner of a BB card shop in Cherry Hill (NJ), called me with an exciting find. I im-
mediately left work for an extended "lunch hour" and drove to his shop. I was amazed to see 8 original 32-image
tin printing plates of the entire 1954 Bowman set. Actually, the 54B set comprises of 224 cards, so 7 of these com-
plete plates made up the set. And, there was an extra 32-image plate. On this extra plate of 32 images was the
famous (and scarce) #66 Ted Williams image.

So, there were 2 such plates in this original find with the #66 Ted Williams image. So much, for the myth back in
the early 1980's that this card's plate was "broken".

Bob acquired these 54B plates from a nearby neighbor who had moved into a home and found them attached to the
attic rafters in order to seal a leaking roof.



TED Z
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:02 AM
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Dave,
I have a couple uncut sheets of Piedmont cigarette boxes (circa 1915-1920) that the seller told me were found in a old house under three layers of flooring. Usually I'm skeptical, but in this case I actually believed him. So, I guess, always be attentive when doing renovations. Maybe one year an uncut sheet of T206s will walk into the National...stranger things have happened.

Ted,
You raise some interesting points. Let me think about it and try to pull some thoughts together.
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  #21  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:17 AM
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there are several players in the 206 set with 4 different cards but only the prince got FIVE.
__________________
T206Resource.com
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  #22  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:43 AM
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Responding to your......

"As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs
otherwise exclusive to the 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights,
Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group."

Unless I am reading this wrong the addition of Cycle backs should not be included since all the SP come with 350 and 460 backs.

Lee

Last edited by Sterling Sports Auctions; 10-10-2009 at 10:43 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-10-2009, 08:00 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Jamie......re..uncut sheets of Piedmont cigarette boxes

Could you please describe your uncut sheets of Piedmont cigarette boxes. Are they labeled L & M, Factory 42 N.C.....and,
what are the dimensions of these sheets ?

Also, how many Piedmont packs are printed on a sheet ? ?


Thanks,

TED Z
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  #24  
Old 10-11-2009, 09:47 AM
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Default Cycle

Lee,

I am aware that the superprints come with Cycle 350 and Cycle 460.

What I was trying to say is that the superprints are possible with the four backs that otherwise only appear on 350-only subjects: AB350 with frame, BL 350, CB and Cycle 350.

And the superprints are NOT possible with the one back that only appears on 350/460 RP subjects: AB350 no frame.

That is why I am surprised that the superprints are possible with the apple green Sovereign 350 (which otherwise appears only on 350/460 RP subjects) and are not, as far as we know, possible with the forest green Sovereign 350 (which appears only on 350-only subjects).

Scot





Scot

Last edited by sreader3; 10-11-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:56 PM
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Ted,
Below is a picture of one of the sheets. They measure roughly 17 inches by 33 inches. They are for Factory 240, 1st District of Pennsylvania. The factory predominantly produced little cigars, and Napoleon and Recruit brand little cigars from that factory were for a time packaged with T207 cards. But all that was before these sheets were produced, because they are definitely post-ATC dissolution. That is obvious because of the Liggett and Myers designation on the packages. They are 10-count cardboard slide and shell type.

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Old 10-11-2009, 04:48 PM
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Cool sheet! Interesting thread, though I must admit, it is making me dizzy.
JimB
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2009, 08:21 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Jamie

Great sheet....thanks for sharing it with us.

It appears to me that a complete sheet comprises of an array of 4 x 12 Piedmont packs. If so, then the top row of this sheet is cut short,
since the 12 fronts of the uppermost packs are missing ?

Regards,

TED Z
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2009, 08:52 PM
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I'm trying to keep up with this,and I just want to make sure I'm following-the six cards with the Sovereign 460 backs(Chance,Chase portrait,Chase dark cap,Mathewson dark cap,Evers,and Cobb portrait red background)are more scarce than the same cards with the 350 and the 350/460 Sovereign backs?By the way Ted,you are tremendous with the detail-very impressive!!!
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2009, 10:03 PM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
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Default packs

Ted Z,
I was in good shape and not quite as dizzy as Prof. Blumenthal until
this discussion of the 4X12 array of Piedmont packs(which by the way
are beauts).
I was thinking that your discovery of the the number 6 as a key code for the
T206, given its consistent and persistent divisability factor, would lead us to
a discussion of the number 6 being the key number for the T206 printed sheets of cards.
Are you thinking the packs play a key role somehow or was this just an interesting excursus.
great work Ted et al
Best,
barry
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  #30  
Old 10-13-2009, 06:48 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Clayton

You understand this scenario correctly....the 6 super-prints are significantly more difficult to find with the SOVEREIGN 460 backs
than the SOVEREIGN 350 backs.

I can say this from my experience in putting together an all-SOVEREIGN set. Especially, the Red Cobb. It took me 4 years to find
this card with the SOVEREIGN 460 back.

Only 4 such red Cobb's have shown up in recent surveys of over 20,000 randomly sampled T206 cards.


Regards,

TED Z
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  #31  
Old 10-13-2009, 09:17 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Barry A......

Your......"Are you thinking the packs play a key role somehow or was this just an interesting excursus."

No....packs per se do not, but Jamie's sheet can reveal to us the following:

1st....Jamie's sheet may be significant to our understanding how T206's were printed. Jamie noted that it is 17" x 33".....and, if my
observation is correct that this sheet is partially cut down; therefore, the missing portion of it amounts to a 2" strip across the top
of the sheet. Based on the missing 12 Piedmont tobacco pack's front and side panels.

Such a complete uncut sheet would originally be 19" wide. This width coincides with the printing press track width that existed in
the early 20th Century lithography presses.

2nd....Until otherwise noted, let's examine a complete sheet measuring 19" x 33". American Litho. (ALC) can print an array of T206's
that are 12 across x 13 rows.....or 156 cards. Interestingly, this is the exact number of subjects in the 150 series of T206's.
Anyhow, we know that many cards were vertically repeated in the printing process; therefore, we have no way of knowing exactly
how many rows were double (or triple) printed.

3rd....Do not despair my friend, SIX is still the basic denominator in ALC's design of these T206 cards. When this design is translated
into the real world of printing them, multiples of 6 will result.

T-Rex TED
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  #32  
Old 10-13-2009, 10:26 AM
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Thanks Ted,I enjoyed your thread and your research-and very much appreciate your time.You must have an awesome set!!!!Sincerely,Clayton
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  #33  
Old 10-13-2009, 10:38 AM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
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Default 6

I get it. Very well said--and i must say quite a surprise as i didn't see the
connections coming. Your EE background sure comes in handy!

No despair here, ole friend---just eager to see the Rise of 6.

best,

barry
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  #34  
Old 10-13-2009, 10:46 AM
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Ted,
It looks to me like the left side of the sheet is also cut off...so isn't the full sheet longer than 33 inches by at least a couple of inches? It seems that either they used the sheet as is (17x33) and just scrapped the partially printed items, or the sheet was previously cut down from (~19 x ~36) sometime after it left the factory.

Thanks for the info,
Jim
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:02 PM
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Default Jim

I'm not sure if the left side of this sheet is curled down or cut off. In any event, it looks like the 12th group of Piedmont
packs are (at least partially) visible on it.

These packs are 2 3/4 inch (lengthwise) x 12 = 33 inch sheet


TED Z
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  #36  
Old 10-14-2009, 01:52 PM
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Default New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

Scot to your......
"That is why I am surprised that the superprints are possible with the apple green Sovereign 350 (which otherwise appears
only on 350/460 RP subjects) and are not, as far as we know, possible with the forest green Sovereign 350 (which appears
only on 350-only subjects)."

1st......I have had or seen multiples of the 6 super-prints with the SOVEREIGN 350 back. And every back is printed with the
apple green color. This surprises me, too....as we know that these 6 subjects were originally 350-only series cards.

2nd......Let's examine these back scans. There are 3 different shades of green on the SOVEREIGN backs, according to the
series their fronts appear in. A forest green, a candy apple green, and a normal green.

3rd......The AB 350 framed back appears to have been printed with two different shades of green. The stylized frame and
the "Base Ball Series..350 Subjects" lettering are a lighter green. Similar to the apple green ink of the SOV 350 ("350/460")
backs. While the "AMERICAN BEAUTY CIGARETTES" lettering is a darker green.
The bi-color printing of this AB back may explain the subsequent No Framed backs of the American Beauty backs (350 and
460)......as they simply eliminated the printing stage of the frame.

Scans of AB and SOV backs reflecting their different series........

......................350-only........................"350/460"...........................460-only
[linked image]
.....................350-only..........................350/460...................350/460 or 460-only


Is there a possible correlation between the light green color of the backs of the 66 cards in the SOVEREIGN "350/460"
series and the light green color of the FRAME design on the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 cards ?

It's anyone's guess....however, let's consider these coinciding factors......

(A)....The 192 cards issued (Summer of 1910) with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame) backs were available quite late
in the 350-only run.

(B)....Also, American Litho. started launching its 350/460 series cards about this time period.

(C)....And, they started this extension of certain subjects from the 350 series into the 460 series by initially selecting
the 6 super-prints....since they printed them with the SOVEREIGN 460 backs.



TED Z
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:17 PM
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Ted,here is the back of my Chase dark cap-please excuse the background.I just noticed some of the 460 back scans have more of the forrest green,this one appears to be more of the apple green.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Clayton's Cards 070.jpg (69.5 KB, 239 views)
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:46 PM
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I think there’s a fundamental point we need to keep in mind with American Beauty backed T206s. It’s the obvious one: they are significantly narrower than all other T206 cards. And that must have distinguished the way they were printed.

Think of it this way. Two horizontally adjacent cards on a sheet normally had a quarter inch of white space between them (you can measure this on any severely off-center card that shows parts of two fronts), which when cut down the middle created the side borders for two cards.

So a normal (i.e. non-American Beauty) sheet was laid out something like this (the red lines show where the cuts would be made):


An American Beauty sheet would have looked like this (i.e. scrunched together):


Now, one could argue that ALC used the first pictured layout and made extra cuts to trim the cards down the proper size and scrapped the little slits of paper that were left (shown in red), like this:


I wondered about this for a long time, until I saw the Malarkey card below. I know it’s a small image, but you can clearly see, especially if you look at the wavy brackets, that there’s no extra space between the two designs, meaning that only one cut was made to get the card to the right size. So they must have used a layout like sample sheet 2. Which means they used different printing plates to print American Beauty cards.



The similarity in green inks between American Beauty and Sovereign may indicate they were printed concurrently or close in time, but they must have been printed from different plates. And to me that makes connecting American Beauty to any other brand tricky. Not impossible, but tricky.
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:57 PM
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Default Jamie

Here is a Cycle and it too is pretty close

Smithb.jpg


Clayton-your Sovereign 460 is the regular forest green.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:29 PM
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Thanks Jim,the photo does show somewhat lighter than looking at it in actuality.This is the only Sovereign backed card I have.I appreciate the help!!
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Old 10-16-2009, 08:30 AM
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Default Jamie

Can you enlarge your Malarkey scan to match Jim's CYCLE scan ?

Because I don't see a measurable difference in the gap between adjacent frames of the AMERICAN BEAUTY back vs. the
adjacent frames of the CYCLE back.

If there is no difference, then (as you said)......"ALC used the first pictured layout and made extra cuts to trim the cards
down the proper size and scrapped the little slits of paper".


The designs of all the various Tobacco back's framing width is 1 1/4 inches wide. Since the AB cards are trimmed down to
1 3/8ths inches wide, this may explain why ALC eliminated the FRAME in their subsequent 350/460 and 460-only AMERICAN
BEAUTY backs. On many cards, given the printing and cutting tolerances, the frame design was being partially cut out with
the narrower card.

The real mystery that still remains is....why the AB card's width were trimmed down an 1/8th inch ?

As, the AMERICAN BEAUTY packs contained 10 (standard size) cigarettes; therefore, they were no smaller in size than the
PIEDMONT, SWEET CAPORAL, etc.



TED Z
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  #42  
Old 10-16-2009, 11:20 AM
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Default ab

Ted,
I have these packs and there is absolutely no difference in size.
The mystery of the reason for the smaller AB card remains---
but is most enticing!

great work

best,
barry
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethicsprof View Post
Ted,
I have these packs and there is absolutely no difference in size.
The mystery of the reason for the smaller AB card remains---
but is most enticing!

great work

best,
barry
Perhaps they were printed elsewhere? Just a WAG.
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  #44  
Old 10-18-2009, 07:04 AM
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Ted Zanidakis
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Default Barry......re..T-packs

How many T-card packs do you now have in your collection ?

Are you trying for all 16 brands included in the T206 issue ?



TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 10-18-2009 at 08:01 AM.
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  #45  
Old 10-18-2009, 04:17 PM
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Default Ted Z

Thanks for asking ole buddy.
What i've been doing is framing T packs with favorite matching(time-wise)
cards. Thus far, I have Old Mill, American Beauty, Sweet Caporal,Drum(pouch)
(with the Drum card with most distinguished provenance alongside!), EPDG,
Piedmont, Hassan (202),Pirate(still dreaming),Helmar(332 stamp with glassine
envelope), 2 Recruits with the 2 different factories related to 207, Mecca
(201), Turkey Red (T3), and one NON-T "High Grade" waiting for the N184.
Almost forgot--an Egyptiennes Straight with a B18 blanket.
I'll never get all 16 T206s but will get as close as humanly possible(which is probably better said as 'financially possible') and with the expert assistance of good friend Jon Canfield along the way.
Are you doing the T206 packs here and there, Ted?

best,
barry

Last edited by ethicsprof; 10-18-2009 at 06:02 PM.
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  #46  
Old 10-18-2009, 08:02 PM
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Default Barry

I listed your T-packs in the following order....as, they appear more impressive. I hope that's fine with you.

American Beauty
Drum(pouch)......(with the Drum card)
El Principe de Gales
Hassan......T202
Helmar......(332 stamp)
Kimball......1883 pack
Mecca......T201
Old Mill
Piedmont
Pirate......T215 (British issue)
Recruit......2 different factories related to T207
Sweet Caporal
Turkey Red......T3
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________


I only have these two T-packs......to complement my T206 Piedmont set

Piedmont (ATC factory 25 VA)
Piedmont (L&M factory 42 NC)

I'm looking for the following T-packs to complement my 4 additional T206's......

American Beauty (factory 42 NC)......near complete AB 460 subset (61 cards)

Sovereign......complete (407 cards)

Sweet Caporal (factory 30)......minus Plank & Wagner (otherwise 467 cards complete)

Sweet Caporal (factory 649)......complete subset of 35 cards



Best regards ole buddy

TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 10-19-2009 at 02:57 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:25 PM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
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Default Ted Z

Many thanks,Ted.
I do like your list of my T-wares!!!
I notice that the Pirates pack is missing from the list---
since it's a T215, do you think it should be counted.
Or do you leave out the ole T215 since it was distributed in Europe rather than here in the US.
the price of the card was a bit much for me, so i framed the Pirates alone.

i'll keep my eyes open for the packs that you need.
please keep your eyes open for me,as well.
by the way, i've seen some nice sovereign's but they tend to be way outside
the T206 date range.

best,
barry
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:32 PM
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Default Ted Z

I should offer the additional information, as you have done:

American Beauty 1905,2nd of VA,fact.25
Drum 1910,4th of NC,fact.39
EPDG 1909, 2nd of VA, fact.17
Hassan 1912 1st of NY,fact. 649
Helmar 1901 3rd of NY fact.7
Mecca 1911 1st of NY,fact. 649
Old Mill 1910 2nd of VA fact.25
Piedmont 1910 2nd of VA fact.25
Recruit 1912 Maryland fact. 606
Recruit 1917 Penn. fact. 240
Sweet Caporal 1910 4th of NC fact. 30
Turkey Red 1911 3rd of NY fact. 7

all the best,
Barry
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  #49  
Old 10-19-2009, 08:42 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Barry

I addended my list of your packs to include your PIRATE pack. That pack is significant; and,
I don't know why I left it out of the original list.


Anyhow, regarding your......
"one NON-T "High Grade" waiting for the N184."

I'm not sure I understand, are you referring to a Kimball's pack ?


TED Z

P.S.......I just clicked onto Net54 and noticed that you posted your list.
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  #50  
Old 10-19-2009, 11:34 AM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
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Default Ted Z

many thanks for adding the Pirate to the list.
You asked about the 'non-T' pack---it is the pack ,for the N184 Kimball ,which i
got from Jon Canfield some time ago.
It is a beauty with HIGH GRADE printed across the top and
Kimball, Rochester,NY at the Bottom (with a gent and lady speaking to each other in their best wares in the middle)
stamp: 2nd of NY factory 17---1883

best,
barry
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