T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Nov 2006, Barry Sloate informed me that he had acquired a T206 collection including 300 cards with Sovereign backs. These cards would be in his November auction. I won
262 of these cards (including 38 HOFers). Having 60 - Sovereign cards to start with, I was determined to complete this set. I do not need the "Big 6", nor Lundgren, nor the
Southern Leaguers (48 cards), I thought this project would be easy. However, early in this game I realized that the big challenge would be to figure out which subjects were
Not Printed with Sovereign backs.
By the Fall of 2007, I had completed this Sovereign set....and, I was confident that I had figured out which T206's were not printed with Sovereign backs. And, I am happy
to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time.

A complete SOVEREIGN-only set comprises of 402 different subjects. And, if you are really "gung ho"....go for a master SOVEREIGN set comprising of 476 cards.

During the Sovereign press runs, American Litho (ALC) introduced a new feature into the T206's....the 350/460 series. ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects **.
And, printed them with Sovereign 460 backs during the printing of the 460-only series (46 subjects).
Note that the Sovereign 460 versions of these 6 subjects are considerably tougher to find relative to the regular 46 subjects in the 460-only series.

Shown here are the Six Super-Prints with their SOVEREIGN 350 backs and their SOVEREIGN 460 backs......


.

-------


............




The 350/460 story continues in the following post with a complete array display of the 66 subjects (with Sovereign 350 backs) which ALC designated for the 350/460 series.


** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in
the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".


TED Z
.

[Leon]

This thread has become historic on our forum over time. Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *


<<>>


Continuing from post #2, illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected for the 350/460 series. American Litho printed
the backs of these 66 cards using an apple green colored ink (instead of the deep green seen on the backs of all the other SOVEREIGN cards).
For more info on this topic, check-out this thread posted in 2009....Sovereign phantom "350/460" series
Here is my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects (Super-Prints are double-printed **)



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v









The next two posts will get more into the "nitty-gritty" of this mystifying 350/460 series......especially regarding their front/back combos.


** Note
I show the super-prints Double-Printed (D-P) on this sheet, since several large T206 surveys have indicated that the 6 super-prints were D-P.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


A picture is worth 1000 words......so, here are the 22 tobacco advertisement backs that are available on the T206 Subjects in the 350/460 Series......


460-type backs




. .

............. Factory #42 .............



350-type backs




Assorted backs





Stay tuned for the "rhyme-n-reason" of the mutually-exclusive front/back combos found with the 460-type backs in this 350/460 series.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!

Thanks, I really appreciate your compliments, Leon.

TED Z
.

[ullmandds]

Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects

Now, continuing our study of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series.....although 22 T-brands were illustrated in the previous post, not all the 63 subjects were printed
with the rare AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT backs.
A theory was first presented in a thread posted April 2010 which hypothesized that the AB 460 and UZIT cards were printed as pairs. Also, BL 460 and red HINDU cards
were printed as pairs. Furthermore, these two sets of pairs are mutually exclusive. Refer to.... 350/460 mutually-exclusive cards ....post #14.

I've constructed the following scans of the 350/460 series subjects in order to illustrate how the mutually-exclusive 460-type (rare) backs in this series resulted from
American Lithographic separating these 63 subjects into two print groups.



Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

. . .
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B




Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).

.


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460



Refer to post #5 in this thread which displays a T206 collection of 33 different "scrap subjects" coinciding with the cards of Group A shown above......
....why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive



Stay tuned for the next Reference or Reflections. New topic....I'll surprise you ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!

Hey Pete

Thanks for the "awesome"....it's one of my favorite adjectives.

Judging from your scan, we both collect similar pieces of colorful cardboard (besides BB cards).

Take care......hope to see you at the National this summer.


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Good stuff Ted. Here's a snippet from one of my favorite T206 discovery threads. It was a 2008 thread--started by you--where what I call the "southern league paradox" was resolved collectively by the Net54 research community. Jamie Hull was a major contributor.

Scot

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ern+Leaguers+-

I'll link a few more of my favorite T206 discovery threads later.

[sreader3]

Ted,

Here is another gem where the 350/460 back profile was fleshed-out.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=220948&page=4

I think this thread is groundbreaking in describing the back profile for each and every subject in the 350/460 RP group, the superprint group and the 460-only group.

Scot

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Good stuff Ted. Here's a snippet from one of my favorite T206 discovery threads. It was a 2008 thread--started by you--where what I call the "southern league paradox" was resolved collectively by the Net54 research community. Jamie Hull was a major contributor.

Scot

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ern+Leaguers+-

I'll link a few more of my favorite T206 discovery threads later.

Hi Scot

That thread was very informative. Thanks for referencing it.

And, I do miss Jamie Hull, he would chime in with some very meaningful info regarding T206's.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





T206 Plank has been a mystery for 108 years. In Dec 2006, after a lot of research, my "wild imagination" formed a theory for this card's scarcity..... T206 Plank theory

It was a popular thread with 113 responses; and, it is somewhat intricate. But I think you'll find it quite interesting.


.

I waited a long time to acquire this Plank, simply because I wanted one whose back was a SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30.....in order to
complete my all--Sweet Cap, Factory #30 set. The majority of the Plank cards have Sweet Cap 350 backs.


OK, Plank's card is really no mystery in my mind anymore, since I read Connie Mack's response to a Philadelphia sports writer circa 1910.....
"The secret of Plank's pitching is no secret at all. It is a good strong arm, a powerful constitution to back it, and neither drinks, smokes,
chews tobacco, nor swears...." **

Eddie Plank most likely informed ATC that he did not want his image portrayed on Tobacco cards. Being the low-keyed guy that he was,
he didn't "hype" it up like Wagner did. Let's hear your thoughts on this subject ?

**
"Connie Mack", by Norman Macht


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

TedZ wrote:

** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".

Lastly, Ted, thanks for this acknowledgement. The existence of the six "superprints" was probably the most interesting of the discoveries revealed in my first (2006) version of Inside T206.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
.

[parkerj33]

Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?

Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?

Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim

Hi Jim

The array of 66 subjects (in post #4) includes Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, and Bob Rhoades (who initially were intended to be continued into the 350/460 series).
However, the Major League careers of these 3 guys ended prior to American Litho printing the 460-type backs. Thus, the 350/460 series consists of 63 subjects.


TED Z
.

[parkerj33]

understood now...so the "6" in post #2 is a typo and should be "66" selected by ALC for 350/460, and then later 3 were not printed in the 460....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

understood now...so the "6" in post #2 is a typo and should be "66" selected by ALC for 350/460, and then later 3 were not printed in the 460....

In post #2......I introduce the 6 super-prints....then in post #4, I illustrate the 66 subjects that were intially selected to be included in the 350/460 series.
These 66 guys are composed of the 6 super-prints and 60 additional subjects.

But, as I have said, 3 of the 60 additional subjects were not printed because their Major League BB careers had ended. Therefore, the resulting 350/460
series comprises of the 6 super-prints and 57 other subjects


v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v


V
V









TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Ted,

Great story. Joe was a character. We had some good laughs on the phone before he passed. He was super friendly one-on-one. And, he had the ONLY copy of Schulte (Front View) Piedmont 350 in existence! (As you know he also had the Doyle Error). For years, Joe kept insisting on our calls that he had a copy of the then unconfirmed Schulte (Front View) with Piedmont 350 but could not figure out how to send me a scan! I believed he had the card, but was blown-away that he didn't have a scanner (or at least couldn't figure out how to use it). He was old school -- which is actually endearing considering we are talking about old baseball cards that are cherished across generations.

Good stuff.

Scot

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




Expanding on the A-B-C-D sub-set, Darren (posts #65 & 73) of T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" added the 1910 COUPON cards, whose backs are
identical to the stylized design of the A-B-C-D cards. Providing us proof that the timeline of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set was issued Spring / Summer of 1910.


The blue Chase is my favorite T206 subject. If a DRUM card of Mr. Chase ever shows up, I might have a chance to complete this A - B - C - C - D sub-set.






TED Z
.

[tedzan]


* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





There has been much controversy on this forum as to whether the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards belong to the T206 "family". And, much of this is due to mis-information.
So, here are the facts.... as Detective Sergeant Joe Friday (from the TV series, Dragnet) would ask...." Just the facts, man ? "......

The Macon (Georgia) Telegraph newspaper was running advertisements introducing ATC's COUPON cigarette brand in the Spring of 1910. And, as shown, in the prior post
here, the 1910 COUPON cards' backs were printed with the same stylized design as the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards (which we
know were issued in the Spring / Summer of 1910). The group of 48 subjects (Major Leaguers) were selected from an early print run of the 350-only series (illustrated in
the 48-card array shown here). And, the Southern Association subjects (20 cards) were printed from the 48 - Southern Leaguers in the T206 set. Furthermore, unlike the
T213-2 and T213-3 cards (with blue captions), the 1910 COUPON cards' captions were printed with Brown ink.

The minor exception with the 1910 COUPON (with respect to the T206 cards) is that American Litho printed the 1910 COUPON cards on "thinner" cardboard. This was done
simply because these cards were not intended to serve as Cigarette pack " stiffeners ". The initial marketing of the COUPON cigarette brand was not in packs, instead these
cigarettes were packaged in the standard cigarette cartons (11" x 3" x 2") of that era, which were labelled " COUPON Cigarettes ", and contained 100's of cigarettes. The
1910 Coupon cards were placed inside these cartons, or "spot-glued" on the outside of the carton (indicative of the red Cobb's paper loss on its back, as shown below).

Jefferson Burdick didn't have the benefit of the "Internet" when he included the 1910 COUPON set in with his classification of the T213-2 and T213-3 sets which were cards
issued 1914 - 1915 (his stated timeline). It's my opinion that Burdick would have included the T213-1 in his classification of the T206's, had he known what we now know.
Furthermore, we now know that the T213-2 and T213-3 cards were actually issued 1914 - 1919.

Click on this thread for the 1910 COUPON checklist.... FYI....1910 COUPON checklist (T213-1)


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects







The Six Super Prints are seldom seen with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.

.



.













TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





Jim Blumenthal started the "ball rolling" regarding the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card when he posted this thread in T2006...... Senator Russel's tobacco card collection......
Jim never waivered in his belief that this Ty Cobb card should have been classified as a T206.

Seven years ago this month, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb thread that sparked some spirited discussion......including information revealing that the Ty Cobb
Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was marketed in the Spring of 1910...... What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back
Check-it-out






TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





This project has been a work in progress on Net54 since 2005. Additional inputs (or corrections) to these checklists are greatly appreciated.

In Jan 2011, for ease of access, I consolidated into a single thread the T206 front/back surveys which were previously conducted on Net54.
Furthermore, included is the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) and RED CROSS (T215-1) checklists, as these sets fall under the "T206 rubric" in that
they are White-Bordered, Brown-Captioned Tobacco cards printed and issued by American Lithographic within the 1909 - 1911 timeline.

And included is the Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back (issued Spring/Summer 1910), since it also conforms to the above stated T206 rubric.







T206 confirmed front/back surveys with respect to T-brand.

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 460

CAROLINA BRIGHTS

CYCLE 350 & 460

DRUM

EL PRINCIPE de GALES

Brown HINDU

Red HINDU

LENOX

OLD MILL

PIEDMONT

POLAR BEAR

SOVEREIGN

SWEET CAPORAL

TOLSTOI

UZIT


1910 COUPON (T213-1)

1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1)

Ty Cobb / "TY COBB" Tobacco



TED Z
.

[Rich Falvo]

Thanks to Ted and all the others who contribute to these general knowledge threads. They are a very valuable resource, especially for new collectors.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set


Imagine pulling a Joe Doyle Nat'l card from a Piedmont pack when you were a teenager. Or, your Dad's visit to Atlanta in 1910 acquiring a Ty Cobb/TY COBB card for you ? ?

One of the most unique T206 collections in the hobby is on display at the University of Georgia (Athens). Former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's collection of approx. 1000
tobacco cards were donated to Georgia U. in 1983 (along with Russell's historical papers).
Russell was an avid BB fan as a youngster. At the age of 13 (1910), he started smoking cigarettes (Piedmont was the available brand in his area of Georgia). He pulled 100's
of T206 cards from the packs he purchased. Furthermore, Old Mill brand was available in his home town, of which he accumulated 100's of T210 cards. His T206 set has 497
different cards. As depicted in the header illustration above, no Wagner or Plank in his collection. Not unusual, since these two gems were not marketed with Piedmont backs.
Also missing in his set (as shown) are Lajoie, Marquard, Chance, and the Magie error.
His teenage smoking habit came to an abrupt end in Fall of 1911, when his parents enrolled him into Gordon Military Institute. It is my impression that his BB card collecting
also ended at that point (judging from the fewer number of T205 cards in his collection).

For more info, you can check out this thread posted in 2008......Senator Russell's collection incl. Joe Doyle error & Ty Cobb back

And, here's the link to an excellent website regarding Russell's collection...... http://baseballcards.galib.uga.edu/about/


P.S.
In 2008, I became very interested in this story regarding Richard Russell's collection, since I acquired 40 cards (duplicates) from his original collection. A distant relative of his
had consigned approx. 200 cards (mostly T206's) to a dealer in Atlanta (who listed the cards on ebay). She was selling many of his duplicates which she had found in a box in
a desk drawer from Russell's estate. The T206's were all Piedmont 350 backs. Including 7 of them from the "Elite 11" group. I was thrilled to acquire all 7 of these rare cards.
Furthermore, I called the dealer in Atlanta and he was a wealth of information regarding the Russell collection.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set


WOW ! I am happy to see someone out in the hinterland is interested in this good stuff. I received an email from a Net54 reader who is fascinated with the Russell collection.
One of the questions he asked me...... "Which additional cards are missing from Russell's set ?"

In the above post regarding this collection, I posted 497 different PIEDMONT cards (the number mentioned in the Russell Collection website). However, I double-checked the
cards in this set and my count is 507 different cards. Listed here are the missing 17 cards......

Plank and Wagner (The PIEDMONT 150 cards of these two subjects were printed by American Lithographic, but never issued in cigarette packs).
Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. POLAR BEAR cigarettes were not marketed in Georgia (circa 1910-1911).
Magie error
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Chance (batting)
Davy Jones
Kiernan
Lajoie (with bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (portrait)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Moriarity
Pfeister (seated)
Stark

Furthermore, Russell's T206 set approaches a master all-PIEDMONT set, since it includes most of the additional PIEDMONT 350 cards of the 150/350 series subjects.


If anyone has anymore questions regarding this set....or questions about Mr. Russell....don't be shy about asking them. I will try to answer them.


TED Z
.