Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Really? The cards in question are evidence in an ongoing investigation of criminal fraud. Fraud is a crime of intent. There is no intent in your example, other than maybe the elephant

Some of these concepts have been explained so many times in the scandal threads it's hard to believe we're still trying to communicate them.

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

[Just.Rachel]

The idea of invisible ink has been brought up several times (once by me lol) and rejected for pretty much the same reasons you gave. I get that. Who would have the authority? Why can they "stamp" personal property that has value?

I'd like these cards out if circulation too. I just don't know how to make that happen without creating more problems. It's definitely not as simple as punching holes in altered cards though.

There were a lot of aspects to the situation I hadn't considered when I put forth the idea of invisible ink. Since they have been explained to me, I now see the situation differently and agree destroying the cards isn't the solution. I just wish I knew what was.

Originally (in my mind) it seemed like a good way to prevent scambags from continually resubbing altered cards to PSA until they sqeaked by. Even that idea has major issues. Ugh


Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Pardon the interruption...but will the OP finally fix the title of the thread????!!!! I keep waiting, but it's been days!!!! Isn't the guy's name Darren Rovell??? Why does it read "Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc."?????????? It's driving me bonkers!!!!!

It's like Ruth's Chris Steakhouse

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

If you understand then what was the point of your irrelevant elephant example?

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Just.Rachel

The idea of invisible ink has been brought up several times (once by me lol) and rejected for pretty much the same reasons you gave. I get that. Who would have the authority? Why can they "stamp" personal property that has value?

I'd like these cards out if circulation too. I just don't know how to make that happen without creating more problems.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Exactly this!

Look, a lot of these altered assets would never have been identified without the BO guys, mostly, with their before and after pictures. Without being able to compare the pre- alteration image with the post-alteration image, I'll bet most of us couldn't identify the specific things done to a given asset. Certainly the TPGs found the task challenging (to say the least.)

As others have repeatedly said, it's just the tip of the iceberg. There are probably tens or hundreds of thousands of altered assets out there, and the vast majority will probably never be identified as such.

So the idea of destroying, stamping, punching altered cards is, I think, more of a knee-jerk suggestion, rather than a practical, well-though one.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

[Just.Rachel]

One of the biggest problems might be in deciding who has the authority to determine a card is altered. PSA? Pffft, please. They can't find their asses with both hands and a flashlight. A govt body? OMG please no.

Another problem comes in when we consider a hobbyist who unknowingly owns an altered card, can't find the guy that sold it to him, did nothing wrong, likes the card, can't be compensated by the scambags that did it, and doesn't want his card further altered by a hole. By what authority can anyone demand he mangles his property? Clearly he's already been victimized by the trimmer, but his card still has value and that card's value would be lessened by a hole.

And that's just the beginning of the hundreds of possible scenarios that dont exactly fit the current pwcc/Moser crap going on.

It's just not that simple, unfortunately.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

Stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner until it's evidence in an investigation. It is privately owned, and the owner is apparently happy. If he wanted to pursue remedy THEN it would be a valid comparison.

You haven't answered the question. Who gets the cards?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner until it's evidence in an investigation. It is privately owned, and the owner is apparently happy. If he wanted to pursue remedy THEN it would be a valid comparison.

You haven't answered the question. Who gets the cards?

Since you have ordered me to stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner I will comply.... After this question for you: Suppose it had been evidence at the Mastro trial and suppose the owner was not happy? Do you think it then should have been destroyed, as a fraudulent, altered asset?

I have answered your question. I don't know. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I think destroying old and valuable cards is a very poor attempt at a solution.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Just.Rachel

The idea of invisible ink has been brought up several times (once by me lol)
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Once by you in the last month since you magically joined us here at N54 and immediately started throwing daggers. In your words: pffffffft!!! LOL! OMG! Seriously cut it out. I've been here since 2013. A bit odd you only post on tapatalk. Where's her IP address Leon?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card could be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

[Just.Rachel]

Originally Posted by kateighty

Once by you in the last month since you magically joined us here at N54 and immediately started throwing daggers. In your words: pffffffft!!! LOL! OMG! Seriously cut it out. I've been here since 2013. A bit odd you only post on tapatalk. Where's her IP address Leon?

Lol I brought it up on PSA's forum...also recently though.

Kudos to you for being here a while. I did indeed join recently. I don't intend to "throw daggers" and apologize for any posts that came off that way.

I don't "only" post on Tapatalk, but it's easier to relax on my sofa with my phone, lol. Mostly Tapatalk, yes.

Leon has already been made aware of your concerns, lol. I won't presume to speak for him, but I believe I answered his concerns sufficiently.

I didn't I tend to rub anyone the wrong way. I hope to turn that around, if possible.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

Scott, I have noticed since I have been participating on this site that I almost always agree with you, and I have been thinking about what, exactly, our difference of opinion is here. First, I think you are talking specifically about cards that may be seized and held by law enforcement in specific court proceedings, and as such, those cards would be under the legal control of law enforcement. Yes, reintroducing them back into the public domain would likely result in their being misrepresented and sold in the future. Hence your conclusion is that, to avoid that almost inevitable scenario, the only way is to destroy them. I think your logic in that assumption is sound.

Where we differ, I think, is that I see value in genuine cards, even if they are altered. Of the 1910 era cards I own, and have owned, some have had rounded corners, missing paper, creases, water damage, fly poop, pinholes, writing, dirt, and etc. So if, for example, someone had an altered T205 Joss with touched-up corners and I could get a good deal on it, I would be happy to add that imperfect card to my imperfect little collection.

I would rather see law enforcement stop fraud, and I'd love to see more sophisticated methods of alteration detection utilized, but (and this will be the tenth time I have said this, forgive me) I don't want to see old cards destroyed.

I think your dismissal of the Wagner hypothetical is weak - where do you draw the line? How about a T206 Doyle, or Plank... at what point do you say, "Let's destroy all the other cards deemed to be fraudulently altered... oh, except for the Wagner because it's so high-profile... but the Plank...?"

So, I think our basic difference is that you seem to think altered cards being sold is the problem, and the solution is to therefore destroy them. Burning down the forest, so to speak. My opinion is that altered cards still have value and the goal should be enhanced detection (maybe a new high-tech grading service) and until then, all we can do is be careful.

I enjoy a good discussion. Your point is valid I think; we just disagree.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I believe PWCC is turning these cards it takes back over to law enforcement.

Coward's way out. Hand in cookie jar, etc etc

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Paul S

Coward's way out. Hand in cookie jar, etc etc

He is very slim and pretty to be doing time. Federal country club would be OK but man would he be popular in a state pen.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Actually it seems we agree on everything except the Wagner. I don't think legit sales of altered cards need to be addressed. I do worry about those cards future in the hobby as well, and I have sold altered cards that have been noted as such. I am reconsidering that policy going forward as the repercussions of that cannot be determined, but that's a personal decision (and I'm still not sure what my decision will be though I have to make up my mind before my upcoming pre-war auction!) Sorry if I came on strong, I've been doing that a lot more since this scandal broke and I think it's just a case of impotent anger get misdirected towards those who don't deserve it.

[Mark17]

Nothing wrong with coming on strong when you are also making valid points and not being rude. It's good when people care about what they are talking about. As I said, I enjoyed the discussion.

No clear-cut answers, that's for sure, other than that the criminals need to be held accountable.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Actually it seems we agree on everything except the Wagner. I don't think legit sales of altered cards need to be addressed. I do worry about those cards future in the hobby as well, and I have sold altered cards that have been noted as such. I am reconsidering that policy going forward as the repercussions of that cannot be determined, but that's a personal decision (and I'm still not sure what my decision will be though I have to make up my mind before my upcoming pre-war auction!) Sorry if I came on strong, I've been doing that a lot more since this scandal broke and I think it's just a case of impotent anger get misdirected towards those who don't deserve it.

Is that just ungraded altered cards or does that include altered cards graded Authentic?

I have seen your descriptions and you do an amazing job in my opinion.

[Just.Rachel]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Actually it seems we agree on everything except the Wagner. I don't think legit sales of altered cards need to be addressed. I do worry about those cards future in the hobby as well, and I have sold altered cards that have been noted as such. I am reconsidering that policy going forward as the repercussions of that cannot be determined, but that's a personal decision (and I'm still not sure what my decision will be though I have to make up my mind before my upcoming pre-war auction!) Sorry if I came on strong, I've been doing that a lot more since this scandal broke and I think it's just a case of impotent anger get misdirected towards those who don't deserve it.

I'm with Mark here, and with you too it seems. I misunderstood what I was reading in your post, and agree pretty much with what Mark had to say. In terms of cards seized in a legal proceeding, I'm with you. It was other altered cards I thought might need to be treated differently.

I'm pretty sure we want the same thing and agree mostly.



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is that just ungraded altered cards or does that include altered cards graded Authentic?

I have seen your descriptions and you do an amazing job in my opinion.

I think if the alteration is clear and irreversible it's definitely safe. Where I am on the fence is alterations that are hard to determine regardless of whether or not they reside in a slab. I'm struggling with the issue to be sure. Whatever I decide will be very public knowledge.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Mark17

When you say "agreed to be authentic," who would be the authority to make this conclusion for everyone? The Supreme Court? And the idea of destroying or defacing assets that have been "enhanced"... under what authority would that occur?

Cards don't commit fraud; people do.

'

agreed to be authentic isnt so hard to do. Nothing is 100%, but but same as saying agreed to be a real PSA 3.. can always argue

I would think when the questioned cards are looked if, if they are to say whether they are deemed trimmed etc, a decision on authenticity can also be determined

Once a hole punch is through these cards there no issues of cards being re-holdered to hide its past......the scarlet hole punch will be there forever.......

[Johnny630]

It doesn’t look like anyone at the National Cares About this .....
The Beat will go on as I’ve said for the past 6 months to many PEOPLE Or STEAK-HOLDERS Are Maning Money Off PSA OPINION SLABBED CARDS With GRADES ALTERED OR NOT. They are dealers, auction houses, eBay sellers, card doctors, flippers and collectors alike who buy NB Opinion with the assumption they will be worth more then when they sell. People do not wanna be told their cards are altered in PSA holders....the blind eye has been turned again just as before I don’t know why I got my hopes up that something positive will happen....I still have a little faith and hope left that it will but it’s going Down everyday watching the sheeple at the Newport Beach Line....

Don’t be a Sucker

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It doesn’t look like anyone at the National Cares About this .....
The Beat will go on as I’ve said for the past 6 months to many PEOPLE Or STEAK-HOLDERS Are Maning Money Off PSA OPINION SLABBED CARDS With GRADES ALTERED OR NOT. They are dealers, auction houses, eBay sellers, card doctors, flippers and collectors alike who buy NB Opinion with the assumption they will be worth more then when they sell. People do not wanna be told their cards are altered in PSA holders....the blind eye has been turned again just as before I don’t know why I got my hopes up that something positive will happen....I still have a little faith and hope left that it will but it’s going Down everyday watching the sheeple at the Newport Beach Line....

Don’t be a Sucker

It's simple John. Too many people have too much money tied up in this. Therefore, they will ignore that the emperor has no clothes.

As to PSA, in my opinion the only thing that genuinely could have an impact would be irrefutable evidence of corruption. And even then, maybe not.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's simple John. Too many people have too much money tied up in this. Therefore, they will ignore that the emperor has no clothes.

As to PSA, in my opinion the only thing that genuinely could have an impact would be irrefutable evidence of corruption. And even then, maybe not.

It’s really a shame Peter........

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob I don't know. Maybe they could be an exhibit in FBI headquarters.

It's probably been changed, but when I visited the BEP in I think 1976 they had a few displays of counterfeit currency.
I got a telling off by security for touching the glass on one....

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

and you can have a 'scandal' card with no chance of fixing it..

No chance you say...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card could be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

Not all seized assets get destroyed.

https://www.fbi.gov/video-repository...ollection/view

What has happened with some of the stamp fakers things is an interesting thing to think about. Many have been donated to the Philatelic Foundation which uses them as a reference collection.

Sperati was busted by French customs for exporting valuable items, but got away by proving they were forgeries he'd made. And the British Philatelic Association bought his inventory, dies and equipment, then produced a book of his forgeries using clearly marked examples.
http://catalogue.klaseboer.com/vol1/html/sperati.htm

Fournier operated openly for years, and his inventory and equipment were bought when his company closed to prevent it falling into the "wrong hands" And much of the stock was used to create albums for reference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franço...(stamp_forger)

Some Sperati and Fournier stamps sell for more than the originals..

If our hobby had an organization like the PF, or APS this problem could be easily solved. But it doesn't , and having the stuff go to PSA as a reference collection just wouldn't work at all.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think if the alteration is clear and irreversible it's definitely safe. Where I am on the fence is alterations that are hard to determine regardless of whether or not they reside in a slab. I'm struggling with the issue to be sure. Whatever I decide will be very public knowledge.

I doubt that any alteration is irreversible. If a round corner can be built up, one that's been cut off can be too. It might be difficult, but doable.

It's really all about the disclosure, an item is what it is.

I also think that altered cards are collectable as long as the alteration is known. I have a few, ranging from stuff done by kids fooling around to fraudulent trimming. I'm not sure if I have any that are recolored, but it's likely I have a 71T that someone took a marker to.

[benjulmag]

It seems to that the question of what to do with seized altered cards is a secondary problem. The main concern IMO is how does the hobby prevent the introduction into circulation of newly created altered cards?

Unlike an instance of a currency counterfeiter being caught and his/her plates destroyed, thus preventing the printing of new currency from these plates, with altered cards under current TPG grading methods one can assume that new alterations will soon be hitting the market. Their will never be a shortage of card doctors looking to make a dishonest buck, and they will always have access to ways to alter cards to elude detection under current methods of grading.

Yes, I understand that it is still prudent to take measures to insure that the current alterations that have come to light do not get re slabbed with numerical grades. But if somehow the hobby can figure out how to solve the main problem, this secondary problem will be solved as well.

I am here at the National, and there has been ample discussion about the current scandal. More than a few people I have talked to have proffered the same potential solution -- introduction of a grading process that relies on science, not human opinion. Doesn't the technology exist to detect trimming, coloring, artificial cleaning, even corner pressing and crease spooning-out? A system using this methodology would simply insert the card into a scanner, and presto, these alterations would be detected.

What about the cost of doing this? Agreed, it will not be cheap, but given the tremendous number of cards waiting to be evaluated by this method, coupled with current grading fees, I would think it could potentially be a profitable venture.

As to how does one induce owners of currently graded cards to submit their cards for this new re grading, the answer would be market forces. If I was the owner of a TPG company using such technology, I would in documented random fashion (so as to establish I am not cherry picking the most blatant examples) select a statistically significant number of high grade T206s (8s, 9s and 10s) for re grading by this new method. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of 9s and 10s (well in excess of 90%) and a significant majority of 8s (well in excess of 50%) would be revealed as altered. At that point for a T206 graded 8 or higher to hold its value it will need to be re slabbed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It seems to that the question of what to do with seized altered cards is a secondary problem. The main concern IMO is how does the hobby prevent the introduction into circulation of newly created altered cards?

Unlike an instance of a currency counterfeiter being caught and his/her plates destroyed, thus preventing the printing of new currency from these plates, with altered cards under current TPG grading methods one can assume that new alterations will soon be hitting the market. Their will never be a shortage of card doctors looking to make a dishonest buck, and they will always have access to ways to alter cards to elude detection under current methods of grading.

Yes, I understand that it is still prudent to take measures to insure that the current alterations that have come to light do not get re slabbed with numerical grades. But if somehow the hobby can figure out how to solve the main problem, this secondary problem will be solved as well.

I am here at the National, and there has been ample discussion about the current scandal. More than a few people I have talked to have proffered the same potential solution -- introduction of a grading process that relies on science, not human opinion. Doesn't the technology exist to detect trimming, coloring, artificial cleaning, even corner pressing and crease spooning-out? A system using this methodology would simply insert the card into a scanner, and presto, these alterations would be detected.

What about the cost of doing this? Agreed, it will not be cheap, but given the tremendous number of cards waiting to be evaluated by this method, coupled with current grading fees, I would think it could potentially be a profitable venture.

As to how does one induce owners of currently graded cards to submit their cards for this new re grading, the answer would be market forces. If I was the owner of a TPG company using such technology, I would in documented random fashion (so as to establish I am not cherry picking the most blatant examples) select a statistically significant number of high grade T206s (8s, 9s and 10s) for re grading by this new method. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of 9s and 10s (well in excess of 90%) and a significant majority of 8s (well in excess of 50%) would be revealed as altered. At that point for a T206 graded 8 or higher to hold its value it will need to be re slabbed.

From the ones I've seen the naked eye could detect the same thing. I just have no idea how some of these cards have made their way into holders.

I'm all in favor of utilizing technology, just not convinced yet of its feasibility.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by steve B

No chance you say...

Well show me a flipped card turned for a big profit that had a hole punch in it...when that happens let me know.......

[barrysloate]

Here's the irony: if the TPG's were able to upgrade with technology that could detect every alteration, so many of the cards they graded over the years would be found to be doctored. And the refunds their clients would demand would bankrupt all of them.

So what is the incentive to implement something that will put them out of business?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's the irony: if the TPG's were able to upgrade with technology that could detect every alteration, so many of the cards they graded over the years would be found to be doctored. And the refunds their clients would demand would bankrupt all of them.

So what is the incentive to implement something that will put them out of business?

PSA would have no incentive. SGC, I'm not sure, as with it they could probably bankrupt PSA if the result is a flood of customers invoking the grading guaranty, not to mention it would be great advertising fodder if it shows their grading services to be superior to PSA's.

But what's to stop a new TPG entrant? It would certainly be different than anything that currently exists and has the potential to be very profitable.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA would have no incentive. SGC, I'm not sure, as with it they could probably bankrupt PSA if the result is a flood of customers invoking the grading guaranty, not to mention it would be great advertising fodder if it shows their grading services to be superior to PSA's.

But what's to stop a new TPG entrant? It would certainly be different than anything that currently exists and has the potential to be very profitable.

The odds of PSA going bankrupt are slim to none.....And slim just left the station

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA would have no incentive. SGC, I'm not sure, as with it they could probably bankrupt PSA if the result is a flood of customers invoking the grading guaranty, not to mention it would be great advertising fodder if it shows their grading services to be superior to PSA's.

But what's to stop a new TPG entrant? It would certainly be different than anything that currently exists and has the potential to be very profitable.

Wouldn't that be a hoot- a new TPG entering the market with state of the art technology and exposing all of the bad cards of its competitors. Now that is something I would like to see.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I was actually approached about joining a grading start up about two weeks before this scandal broke. I turned it down due to the conflict of interest and concern about the company having enough money for the initial huge marketing push that would be necessary.

I had to rethink my initial response long and hard after the scandal broke, but if I changed careers again my wife would kill me, and I don't see how you can run an auction and be a party involved with a grading company.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Well show me a flipped card turned for a big profit that had a hole punch in it...when that happens let me know.......

Holes can be filled. We already know recoloring can be done that PSA can't detect in their 30 seconds of "effort"

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I was actually approached about joining a grading start up about two weeks before this scandal broke. I turned it down due to the conflict of interest and concern about the company having enough money for the initial huge marketing push that would be necessary.

I had to rethink my initial response long and hard after the scandal broke, but if I changed careers again my wife would kill me, and I don't see how you can run an auction and be a party involved with a grading company.

Most stamp expertisers also have other jobs, sometimes as a dealer. They don't work at the companies location, but with batches of stuff in their specialty that are mailed to them. (Some probably do work at the organizations location)

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's the irony: if the TPG's were able to upgrade with technology that could detect every alteration, so many of the cards they graded over the years would be found to be doctored. And the refunds their clients would demand would bankrupt all of them.

So what is the incentive to implement something that will put them out of business?

Well a new competitor TPG with a strong product wouldn't mind doing it...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by steve B

Holes can be filled. We already know recoloring can be done that PSA can't detect in their 30 seconds of "effort"

show me one card that gets 'outed' from the other forum where a card with a hole punch sized hole got a PSA numeric grade.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I was actually approached about joining a grading start up about two weeks before this scandal broke. I turned it down due to the conflict of interest and concern about the company having enough money for the initial huge marketing push that would be necessary.

I had to rethink my initial response long and hard after the scandal broke, but if I changed careers again my wife would kill me, and I don't see how you can run an auction and be a party involved with a grading company.

Scott, someone with the integrity to even see the conflict of interest is exactly who is needed to head up such an effort. I'll bet you could come up with an ethical policy that could firewall your existing business and your efforts with a new grading service. For starters, never grade your own cards, never auction cards your new grading service has graded, and etc.

Eventually, being in on the ground floor of a grading service that is committed to catching alterations using the best, most current technologies, and constantly improving detection methods, would be more profitable than your current business (and probably more rewarding, being part of a solution to this huge problem.)

Look, if wealthy politicians can put their assets in a blind trust and continue to make policy decisions that have huge impact on their portfolios, you could do it much simpler by separating your inventory and auction material from the stuff you grade.

Any successful new TPG will need experienced card dealers, and the fact you are even concerned about the conflict tells me you have the ethical makeup necessary.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

show me one card that gets 'outed' from the other forum where a card with a hole punch sized hole got a PSA numeric grade.

Jake, just let go of the endless pointless arguments.

No holes have been punched yet, to there's no hole punched card for the doctors to fill in.

And yes, no lawsuits yet either.

You almost make me want to hole punch a card, fix it and send it to PSA, but that would be what I like to call "bad" so I won't do it.
Just rest assured that it's entirely possible to do.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by steve B

Jake, just let go of the endless pointless arguments.

No holes have been punched yet, to there's no hole punched card for the doctors to fill in.

And yes, no lawsuits yet either.

You almost make me want to hole punch a card, fix it and send it to PSA, but that would be what I like to call "bad" so I won't do it.
Just rest assured that it's entirely possible to do.

Still, something entirely possible that has never occurred versus the 1000s of examples that have passed grading, ill take my chances on the 'entirely possible' angle I assume thats in the everything is possible category

A little pot calling the kettle black on saying an argument is pointless but then arguing against it.

However, i can see a new grading company promising to DOUBLE the money on any card that would be deemed altered. I can see those slabs being sought after more than the no guarantee ones and the soft guarantee ones

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

The odds of PSA going bankrupt are slim to none.....And slim just left the station

I would think that the TPGs all have some kind of insurance, to cover themselves if something like this happened.

Wouldn't surprise me 5-10 ten years from now, that people would think something is wrong with a card if its in an old TPG holder where it was graded by a human. Let new technology grade it with consistent standards, and let the new registry game begin.

Its like trying to sell a raw card now, where someone thinks its bad since not Blessed by a TPG. If/when I consign a card to sell, Ill use the best TPG at that time. Hopefully a new company comes into the grading arena, and raises the bar.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I would think that the TPGs all have some kind of insurance, to cover themselves if something like this happened.

Wouldn't surprise me 5-10 ten years from now, that people would think something is wrong with a card if its in an old TPG holder where it was graded by a human. Let new technology grade it with consistent standards, and let the new registry game begin.

Its like trying to sell a raw card now, where someone thinks its bad since not Blessed by a TPG. If/when I consign a card to sell, Ill use the best TPG at that time. Hopefully a new company comes into the grading arena, and raises the bar.

Agree......

Maybe a good time to sell now When Ignorance, Turning a Blind Eye and Kool Aid Drinking seem to be at an all time high....most don’t get it or care....they’re addicted to the PSA grade that’s all that matters. I believe the time to Dump is now while the sheeple are still attached to the hip of PSA

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Scott, someone with the integrity to even see the conflict of interest is exactly who is needed to head up such an effort. I'll bet you could come up with an ethical policy that could firewall your existing business and your efforts with a new grading service. For starters, never grade your own cards, never auction cards your new grading service has graded, and etc.

Eventually, being in on the ground floor of a grading service that is committed to catching alterations using the best, most current technologies, and constantly improving detection methods, would be more profitable than your current business (and probably more rewarding, being part of a solution to this huge problem.)

Look, if wealthy politicians can put their assets in a blind trust and continue to make policy decisions that have huge impact on their portfolios, you could do it much simpler by separating your inventory and auction material from the stuff you grade.

Any successful new TPG will need experienced card dealers, and the fact you are even concerned about the conflict tells me you have the ethical makeup necessary.

I appreciate the thought, and even considered the "not selling cards the company graded" route. The problem with that would be if the grading company became successful and developed a reputation for missing very few altered cards, and my company refuses to sell them. My own success in one venture would actually harm the other venture. Not to mention having to turn down consignments with cards from the grading company. There's just no way to make it work that I can see.

The party that approached me is one of the most honest guys I've met, and I was incredibly flattered that he though enough of me to ask. I'm hoping he finds a path forward with someone else trustworthy, and frankly more knowledgeable than me. I know a lot, but it's a drop in the bucket in comparison to many I've met on this board. I'd be spending a LOT of time on research for some of the more esoteric items as they came in.

[Thecafewha]

Sorry if it’s been discussed but is there a way to see the POP for cards currently in the register (instead of the total POP for all cards graded)?

While still not accurate, might give a better idea of the cards still in holders depending on the rates of registry use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I appreciate the thought, and even considered the "not selling cards the company graded" route. The problem with that would be if the grading company became successful and developed a reputation for missing very few altered cards, and my company refuses to sell them. My own success in one venture would actually harm the other venture. Not to mention having to turn down consignments with cards from the grading company. There's just no way to make it work that I can see.

My thought is that such a grading company is so badly needed, and has so much profit potential, that as you grow the grading service you gradually transition out of the dealer business. Then you're a major force in the hobby with no possible conflicts, supporting your family well, collecting whatever you want for your own collection, all with the satisfaction that you're not just making customers happy by selling them cards, you're giving them a comfort level with the purchases they are making.

On your 100th birthday, looking back, which would be a more satisfying legacy? I'm not saying it would be easy or that success would be guaranteed, but eventually somebody will do it. It sure isn't in the best interest for existing TPG to add new technological testing methods to their process that would reveal all the alterations they missed..... So, whomever does start this new, high tech grading service.... for everybody's sake the #1 priority must be integrity.

On a side note, could black light or infrared reveal modern foreign substances like coloring, rebuilt corners, or bleach through a plastic holder? Wouldn't it be cool if it could, and someone could set up at The National with a machine where, for $5.00, people could put their PSA or other graded cards under the lights for a quick alteration detection scan?

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Mark17

My thought is that such a grading company is so badly needed, and has so much profit potential, that as you grow the grading service you gradually transition out of the dealer business. Then you're a major force in the hobby with no possible conflicts, supporting your family well, collecting whatever you want for your own collection, all with the satisfaction that you're not just making customers happy by selling them cards, you're giving them a comfort level with the purchases they are making.

On your 100th birthday, looking back, which would be a more satisfying legacy? I'm not saying it would be easy or that success would be guaranteed, but eventually somebody will do it. It sure isn't in the best interest for existing TPG to add new technological testing methods to their process that would reveal all the alterations they missed..... So, whomever does start this new, high tech grading service.... for everybody's sake the #1 priority must be integrity.

On a side note, could black light or infrared reveal modern foreign substances like coloring, rebuilt corners, or bleach through a plastic holder? Wouldn't it be cool if it could, and someone could set up at The National with a machine where, for $5.00, people could put their PSA or other graded cards under the lights for a quick alteration detection scan?

+1 completely agree

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

My thought is that such a grading company is so badly needed, and has so much profit potential, that as you grow the grading service you gradually transition out of the dealer business. Then you're a major force in the hobby with no possible conflicts, supporting your family well, collecting whatever you want for your own collection, all with the satisfaction that you're not just making customers happy by selling them cards, you're giving them a comfort level with the purchases they are making.

On your 100th birthday, looking back, which would be a more satisfying legacy? I'm not saying it would be easy or that success would be guaranteed, but eventually somebody will do it. It sure isn't in the best interest for existing TPG to add new technological testing methods to their process that would reveal all the alterations they missed..... So, whomever does start this new, high tech grading service.... for everybody's sake the #1 priority must be integrity.

On a side note, could black light or infrared reveal modern foreign substances like coloring, rebuilt corners, or bleach through a plastic holder? Wouldn't it be cool if it could, and someone could set up at The National with a machine where, for $5.00, people could put their PSA or other graded cards under the lights for a quick alteration detection scan?

Would be super cool if this happened !!!

I’d love to see PSA get taken down as number one ! Competition is a Beautiful Thing :-)