Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card could be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

Scott, I have noticed since I have been participating on this site that I almost always agree with you, and I have been thinking about what, exactly, our difference of opinion is here. First, I think you are talking specifically about cards that may be seized and held by law enforcement in specific court proceedings, and as such, those cards would be under the legal control of law enforcement. Yes, reintroducing them back into the public domain would likely result in their being misrepresented and sold in the future. Hence your conclusion is that, to avoid that almost inevitable scenario, the only way is to destroy them. I think your logic in that assumption is sound.

Where we differ, I think, is that I see value in genuine cards, even if they are altered. Of the 1910 era cards I own, and have owned, some have had rounded corners, missing paper, creases, water damage, fly poop, pinholes, writing, dirt, and etc. So if, for example, someone had an altered T205 Joss with touched-up corners and I could get a good deal on it, I would be happy to add that imperfect card to my imperfect little collection.

I would rather see law enforcement stop fraud, and I'd love to see more sophisticated methods of alteration detection utilized, but (and this will be the tenth time I have said this, forgive me) I don't want to see old cards destroyed.

I think your dismissal of the Wagner hypothetical is weak - where do you draw the line? How about a T206 Doyle, or Plank... at what point do you say, "Let's destroy all the other cards deemed to be fraudulently altered... oh, except for the Wagner because it's so high-profile... but the Plank...?"

So, I think our basic difference is that you seem to think altered cards being sold is the problem, and the solution is to therefore destroy them. Burning down the forest, so to speak. My opinion is that altered cards still have value and the goal should be enhanced detection (maybe a new high-tech grading service) and until then, all we can do is be careful.

I enjoy a good discussion. Your point is valid I think; we just disagree.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Actually it seems we agree on everything except the Wagner. I don't think legit sales of altered cards need to be addressed. I do worry about those cards future in the hobby as well, and I have sold altered cards that have been noted as such. I am reconsidering that policy going forward as the repercussions of that cannot be determined, but that's a personal decision (and I'm still not sure what my decision will be though I have to make up my mind before my upcoming pre-war auction!) Sorry if I came on strong, I've been doing that a lot more since this scandal broke and I think it's just a case of impotent anger get misdirected towards those who don't deserve it.

[Mark17]

Nothing wrong with coming on strong when you are also making valid points and not being rude. It's good when people care about what they are talking about. As I said, I enjoyed the discussion.

No clear-cut answers, that's for sure, other than that the criminals need to be held accountable.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Actually it seems we agree on everything except the Wagner. I don't think legit sales of altered cards need to be addressed. I do worry about those cards future in the hobby as well, and I have sold altered cards that have been noted as such. I am reconsidering that policy going forward as the repercussions of that cannot be determined, but that's a personal decision (and I'm still not sure what my decision will be though I have to make up my mind before my upcoming pre-war auction!) Sorry if I came on strong, I've been doing that a lot more since this scandal broke and I think it's just a case of impotent anger get misdirected towards those who don't deserve it.

Is that just ungraded altered cards or does that include altered cards graded Authentic?

I have seen your descriptions and you do an amazing job in my opinion.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is that just ungraded altered cards or does that include altered cards graded Authentic?

I have seen your descriptions and you do an amazing job in my opinion.

I think if the alteration is clear and irreversible it's definitely safe. Where I am on the fence is alterations that are hard to determine regardless of whether or not they reside in a slab. I'm struggling with the issue to be sure. Whatever I decide will be very public knowledge.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think if the alteration is clear and irreversible it's definitely safe. Where I am on the fence is alterations that are hard to determine regardless of whether or not they reside in a slab. I'm struggling with the issue to be sure. Whatever I decide will be very public knowledge.

I doubt that any alteration is irreversible. If a round corner can be built up, one that's been cut off can be too. It might be difficult, but doable.

It's really all about the disclosure, an item is what it is.

I also think that altered cards are collectable as long as the alteration is known. I have a few, ranging from stuff done by kids fooling around to fraudulent trimming. I'm not sure if I have any that are recolored, but it's likely I have a 71T that someone took a marker to.

[Just.Rachel]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Actually it seems we agree on everything except the Wagner. I don't think legit sales of altered cards need to be addressed. I do worry about those cards future in the hobby as well, and I have sold altered cards that have been noted as such. I am reconsidering that policy going forward as the repercussions of that cannot be determined, but that's a personal decision (and I'm still not sure what my decision will be though I have to make up my mind before my upcoming pre-war auction!) Sorry if I came on strong, I've been doing that a lot more since this scandal broke and I think it's just a case of impotent anger get misdirected towards those who don't deserve it.

I'm with Mark here, and with you too it seems. I misunderstood what I was reading in your post, and agree pretty much with what Mark had to say. In terms of cards seized in a legal proceeding, I'm with you. It was other altered cards I thought might need to be treated differently.

I'm pretty sure we want the same thing and agree mostly.



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card could be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

Not all seized assets get destroyed.

https://www.fbi.gov/video-repository...ollection/view

What has happened with some of the stamp fakers things is an interesting thing to think about. Many have been donated to the Philatelic Foundation which uses them as a reference collection.

Sperati was busted by French customs for exporting valuable items, but got away by proving they were forgeries he'd made. And the British Philatelic Association bought his inventory, dies and equipment, then produced a book of his forgeries using clearly marked examples.
http://catalogue.klaseboer.com/vol1/html/sperati.htm

Fournier operated openly for years, and his inventory and equipment were bought when his company closed to prevent it falling into the "wrong hands" And much of the stock was used to create albums for reference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franço...(stamp_forger)

Some Sperati and Fournier stamps sell for more than the originals..

If our hobby had an organization like the PF, or APS this problem could be easily solved. But it doesn't , and having the stuff go to PSA as a reference collection just wouldn't work at all.

[benjulmag]

It seems to that the question of what to do with seized altered cards is a secondary problem. The main concern IMO is how does the hobby prevent the introduction into circulation of newly created altered cards?

Unlike an instance of a currency counterfeiter being caught and his/her plates destroyed, thus preventing the printing of new currency from these plates, with altered cards under current TPG grading methods one can assume that new alterations will soon be hitting the market. Their will never be a shortage of card doctors looking to make a dishonest buck, and they will always have access to ways to alter cards to elude detection under current methods of grading.

Yes, I understand that it is still prudent to take measures to insure that the current alterations that have come to light do not get re slabbed with numerical grades. But if somehow the hobby can figure out how to solve the main problem, this secondary problem will be solved as well.

I am here at the National, and there has been ample discussion about the current scandal. More than a few people I have talked to have proffered the same potential solution -- introduction of a grading process that relies on science, not human opinion. Doesn't the technology exist to detect trimming, coloring, artificial cleaning, even corner pressing and crease spooning-out? A system using this methodology would simply insert the card into a scanner, and presto, these alterations would be detected.

What about the cost of doing this? Agreed, it will not be cheap, but given the tremendous number of cards waiting to be evaluated by this method, coupled with current grading fees, I would think it could potentially be a profitable venture.

As to how does one induce owners of currently graded cards to submit their cards for this new re grading, the answer would be market forces. If I was the owner of a TPG company using such technology, I would in documented random fashion (so as to establish I am not cherry picking the most blatant examples) select a statistically significant number of high grade T206s (8s, 9s and 10s) for re grading by this new method. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of 9s and 10s (well in excess of 90%) and a significant majority of 8s (well in excess of 50%) would be revealed as altered. At that point for a T206 graded 8 or higher to hold its value it will need to be re slabbed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It seems to that the question of what to do with seized altered cards is a secondary problem. The main concern IMO is how does the hobby prevent the introduction into circulation of newly created altered cards?

Unlike an instance of a currency counterfeiter being caught and his/her plates destroyed, thus preventing the printing of new currency from these plates, with altered cards under current TPG grading methods one can assume that new alterations will soon be hitting the market. Their will never be a shortage of card doctors looking to make a dishonest buck, and they will always have access to ways to alter cards to elude detection under current methods of grading.

Yes, I understand that it is still prudent to take measures to insure that the current alterations that have come to light do not get re slabbed with numerical grades. But if somehow the hobby can figure out how to solve the main problem, this secondary problem will be solved as well.

I am here at the National, and there has been ample discussion about the current scandal. More than a few people I have talked to have proffered the same potential solution -- introduction of a grading process that relies on science, not human opinion. Doesn't the technology exist to detect trimming, coloring, artificial cleaning, even corner pressing and crease spooning-out? A system using this methodology would simply insert the card into a scanner, and presto, these alterations would be detected.

What about the cost of doing this? Agreed, it will not be cheap, but given the tremendous number of cards waiting to be evaluated by this method, coupled with current grading fees, I would think it could potentially be a profitable venture.

As to how does one induce owners of currently graded cards to submit their cards for this new re grading, the answer would be market forces. If I was the owner of a TPG company using such technology, I would in documented random fashion (so as to establish I am not cherry picking the most blatant examples) select a statistically significant number of high grade T206s (8s, 9s and 10s) for re grading by this new method. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of 9s and 10s (well in excess of 90%) and a significant majority of 8s (well in excess of 50%) would be revealed as altered. At that point for a T206 graded 8 or higher to hold its value it will need to be re slabbed.

From the ones I've seen the naked eye could detect the same thing. I just have no idea how some of these cards have made their way into holders.

I'm all in favor of utilizing technology, just not convinced yet of its feasibility.