Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

If these cards are now agreed to be authentic, you can do what they do to 'cards' in Vegas Casinos.....hole punch in them.....thus they still are authentic...and you can have a 'scandal' card with no chance of fixing it..

When you say "agreed to be authentic," who would be the authority to make this conclusion for everyone? The Supreme Court? And the idea of destroying or defacing assets that have been "enhanced"... under what authority would that occur?

Aside from investment value, the reason collectors prefer nicer looking cards to beaters is their visual appeal. So, suppose I want to frame some of my 1963-67 Twins cards for display in my house. I see that a few have some discoloring on the borders, so I clean them a bit. One card has a ragged edge so I trim it straight. Nothing nefarious - they are my cards and I want them to display well.

Then one unfortunate day, an elephant sits on me (my worst recurring nightmare) and my assets are sold, without anyone knowing they've been altered.

Is the suggestion that as soon as I alter one of my assets, I must also stamp it or punch a hole in it? Or that I should make it clear in my will that upon my death, certain of my assets should be stamped, punched, or destroyed?

I'm not understanding questions regarding the higher authority concepts. Being a live and let live libertarian that's nothing new for me. But from a legal or implementation standpoint.... how can assets be prohibited from being altered, bought, and sold, if there is no fraud/criminal intent involved, and how can someone with an altered asset be made to stamp or hole punch it?

I'm sure I'll get reams of disagreement on this, but I think the problem here is with crimes of fraud, misrepresentation, etc, being perpetrated to artificially inflate sales revenues for those involved with the scheme, and NOT with the inanimate assets themselves.

Cards don't commit fraud; people do.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Really? The cards in question are evidence in an ongoing investigation of criminal fraud. Fraud is a crime of intent. There is no intent in your example, other than maybe the elephant

Some of these concepts have been explained so many times in the scandal threads it's hard to believe we're still trying to communicate them.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Really? The cards in question are evidence in an ongoing investigation of criminal fraud. Fraud is a crime of intent. There is no intent in your example, other than maybe the elephant

Some of these concepts have been explained so many times in the scandal threads it's hard to believe we're still trying to communicate them.

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

If you understand then what was the point of your irrelevant elephant example?

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

Stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner until it's evidence in an investigation. It is privately owned, and the owner is apparently happy. If he wanted to pursue remedy THEN it would be a valid comparison.

You haven't answered the question. Who gets the cards?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner until it's evidence in an investigation. It is privately owned, and the owner is apparently happy. If he wanted to pursue remedy THEN it would be a valid comparison.

You haven't answered the question. Who gets the cards?

Since you have ordered me to stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner I will comply.... After this question for you: Suppose it had been evidence at the Mastro trial and suppose the owner was not happy? Do you think it then should have been destroyed, as a fraudulent, altered asset?

I have answered your question. I don't know. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I think destroying old and valuable cards is a very poor attempt at a solution.

[JollyElm]

Pardon the interruption...but will the OP finally fix the title of the thread????!!!! I keep waiting, but it's been days!!!! Isn't the guy's name Darren Rovell??? Why does it read "Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc."?????????? It's driving me bonkers!!!!!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Pardon the interruption...but will the OP finally fix the title of the thread????!!!! I keep waiting, but it's been days!!!! Isn't the guy's name Darren Rovell??? Why does it read "Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc."?????????? It's driving me bonkers!!!!!

It's like Ruth's Chris Steakhouse

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Mark17

When you say "agreed to be authentic," who would be the authority to make this conclusion for everyone? The Supreme Court? And the idea of destroying or defacing assets that have been "enhanced"... under what authority would that occur?

Cards don't commit fraud; people do.

'

agreed to be authentic isnt so hard to do. Nothing is 100%, but but same as saying agreed to be a real PSA 3.. can always argue

I would think when the questioned cards are looked if, if they are to say whether they are deemed trimmed etc, a decision on authenticity can also be determined

Once a hole punch is through these cards there no issues of cards being re-holdered to hide its past......the scarlet hole punch will be there forever.......

[Johnny630]

It doesn’t look like anyone at the National Cares About this .....
The Beat will go on as I’ve said for the past 6 months to many PEOPLE Or STEAK-HOLDERS Are Maning Money Off PSA OPINION SLABBED CARDS With GRADES ALTERED OR NOT. They are dealers, auction houses, eBay sellers, card doctors, flippers and collectors alike who buy NB Opinion with the assumption they will be worth more then when they sell. People do not wanna be told their cards are altered in PSA holders....the blind eye has been turned again just as before I don’t know why I got my hopes up that something positive will happen....I still have a little faith and hope left that it will but it’s going Down everyday watching the sheeple at the Newport Beach Line....

Don’t be a Sucker

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It doesn’t look like anyone at the National Cares About this .....
The Beat will go on as I’ve said for the past 6 months to many PEOPLE Or STEAK-HOLDERS Are Maning Money Off PSA OPINION SLABBED CARDS With GRADES ALTERED OR NOT. They are dealers, auction houses, eBay sellers, card doctors, flippers and collectors alike who buy NB Opinion with the assumption they will be worth more then when they sell. People do not wanna be told their cards are altered in PSA holders....the blind eye has been turned again just as before I don’t know why I got my hopes up that something positive will happen....I still have a little faith and hope left that it will but it’s going Down everyday watching the sheeple at the Newport Beach Line....

Don’t be a Sucker

It's simple John. Too many people have too much money tied up in this. Therefore, they will ignore that the emperor has no clothes.

As to PSA, in my opinion the only thing that genuinely could have an impact would be irrefutable evidence of corruption. And even then, maybe not.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's simple John. Too many people have too much money tied up in this. Therefore, they will ignore that the emperor has no clothes.

As to PSA, in my opinion the only thing that genuinely could have an impact would be irrefutable evidence of corruption. And even then, maybe not.

It’s really a shame Peter........