Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Really? The cards in question are evidence in an ongoing investigation of criminal fraud. Fraud is a crime of intent. There is no intent in your example, other than maybe the elephant

Some of these concepts have been explained so many times in the scandal threads it's hard to believe we're still trying to communicate them.

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

If you understand then what was the point of your irrelevant elephant example?

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

Stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner until it's evidence in an investigation. It is privately owned, and the owner is apparently happy. If he wanted to pursue remedy THEN it would be a valid comparison.

You haven't answered the question. Who gets the cards?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner until it's evidence in an investigation. It is privately owned, and the owner is apparently happy. If he wanted to pursue remedy THEN it would be a valid comparison.

You haven't answered the question. Who gets the cards?

Since you have ordered me to stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner I will comply.... After this question for you: Suppose it had been evidence at the Mastro trial and suppose the owner was not happy? Do you think it then should have been destroyed, as a fraudulent, altered asset?

I have answered your question. I don't know. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I think destroying old and valuable cards is a very poor attempt at a solution.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card could be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

Scott, I have noticed since I have been participating on this site that I almost always agree with you, and I have been thinking about what, exactly, our difference of opinion is here. First, I think you are talking specifically about cards that may be seized and held by law enforcement in specific court proceedings, and as such, those cards would be under the legal control of law enforcement. Yes, reintroducing them back into the public domain would likely result in their being misrepresented and sold in the future. Hence your conclusion is that, to avoid that almost inevitable scenario, the only way is to destroy them. I think your logic in that assumption is sound.

Where we differ, I think, is that I see value in genuine cards, even if they are altered. Of the 1910 era cards I own, and have owned, some have had rounded corners, missing paper, creases, water damage, fly poop, pinholes, writing, dirt, and etc. So if, for example, someone had an altered T205 Joss with touched-up corners and I could get a good deal on it, I would be happy to add that imperfect card to my imperfect little collection.

I would rather see law enforcement stop fraud, and I'd love to see more sophisticated methods of alteration detection utilized, but (and this will be the tenth time I have said this, forgive me) I don't want to see old cards destroyed.

I think your dismissal of the Wagner hypothetical is weak - where do you draw the line? How about a T206 Doyle, or Plank... at what point do you say, "Let's destroy all the other cards deemed to be fraudulently altered... oh, except for the Wagner because it's so high-profile... but the Plank...?"

So, I think our basic difference is that you seem to think altered cards being sold is the problem, and the solution is to therefore destroy them. Burning down the forest, so to speak. My opinion is that altered cards still have value and the goal should be enhanced detection (maybe a new high-tech grading service) and until then, all we can do is be careful.

I enjoy a good discussion. Your point is valid I think; we just disagree.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL. You're funny. I only "ordered" you to stop making bad comparisons.

The only answer that doesn't involve destroying them that makes any sense is to treat them like any seized asset and the government sells them at auction. And then what do you think happens with them?

That's why I think they have to be destroyed.

To answer your irrelevant hypothetical, if the Gretzky Wagner was seized as evidence it would STILL be a different scenario as that card will never be as anonymous as the cards in the current scandal. There's almost no conceivable way that the card could be sold fraudulently in the future because ostensibly anyone interested and able to purchase it would be well aware of it's history. You can't say that about some random 1952 Topps Mantle of which there are thousands graded and it's not inconceivable that there are nice examples that still aren't graded. So 20 years from now a card the government sold as altered is sold as legit because it's impossible to trace. Something the Wagner will never be.

Not all seized assets get destroyed.

https://www.fbi.gov/video-repository...ollection/view

What has happened with some of the stamp fakers things is an interesting thing to think about. Many have been donated to the Philatelic Foundation which uses them as a reference collection.

Sperati was busted by French customs for exporting valuable items, but got away by proving they were forgeries he'd made. And the British Philatelic Association bought his inventory, dies and equipment, then produced a book of his forgeries using clearly marked examples.
http://catalogue.klaseboer.com/vol1/html/sperati.htm

Fournier operated openly for years, and his inventory and equipment were bought when his company closed to prevent it falling into the "wrong hands" And much of the stock was used to create albums for reference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franço...(stamp_forger)

Some Sperati and Fournier stamps sell for more than the originals..

If our hobby had an organization like the PF, or APS this problem could be easily solved. But it doesn't , and having the stuff go to PSA as a reference collection just wouldn't work at all.