Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, I was looking for your explanation of the 150 series on your website - in the page I found on your site, you state your theory as fact (as opposed to "we think", "evidence indicates", "most likely", etc.). I could not find the evidence that led you to these conclusions - you have alluded to it (ledger pages, advertising dates, etc.) but I can't find where you pull all that together. Is there a place on your site or elsewhere that lays all this out, so that it's easy for a numbskull like me to understand it (as opposed to simply stating it is fact). Please keep in mind that as you said, it took months of discussions for it to sink in for some when it was first presented to them, and I can promise I am probably even slower, but if you lay it out for me I might get it. Thanks.

Here was the page I found where you stated your conclusions, but I couldn't find the back-up: 150 series info on T206Resource.com

[Abravefan11]

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Runscott]

Thanks Tim. I was looking for that page, but the link was sending me somewhere else (I think ).

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple. You have alluded to backing facts that aren't being presented, and without those, it's a very interesting theory, but not convincing enough to state so definitively that other theories are rubbish. So far I'm getting the feeling that some of the evidence behind it is being taken by you all to mean something that could be interpreted differently;i.e - the advertising, as I've already explained (as have others).

Don't get me wrong - yours is as good as any presented. I doubt anyone would dispute that. Well, maybe a couple

Thanks,
Scott

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple.

Thanks,
Scott

We knew when the site went live that some areas would need additional information added. We decided that once we launched the best approach would be to listen to the feedback of the readers. If we receive questions about specific sections and it's evident more content is needed to clarify certain points we will be adding it. The entire site is a work in progress and will grow over time. Thanks for the feedback.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

We knew when the site went live that some areas would need additional information added. We decided that once we launched the best approach would be to listen to the feedback of the readers. If we receive questions about specific sections and it's evident more content is needed to clarify certain points we will be adding it. The entire site is a work in progress and will grow over time. Thanks for the feedback.

Thanks Tim. Sadly, I don't think the 'where did Plank and Wagner start off?' discussion is going anywhere without your backing evidence, but that's fine. We have a couple of theories with very little to back them up and that's basically where we were a year ago.

If you ever decide to publish your evidence that backs up your theory, I will be the first to read it.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

Your...... "This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set " ...... What is your evidence of this hypothesis of yours ?

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so, Wagner
and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

What we know of the T206 timeline, circa May 1909 was the first release of the 150 series cards. Then, followed by circa August 1909 release of the HINDU cards.
Now, we would like to know what your release dates are with respect to the introduction of the PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAPORAL 150 and the SOVEREIGN 150 cards ?


TED Z

[Runscott]

Thanks, Tim - that's great!

[wonkaticket]

Classic Ted Z.

LMAO, Only in Net54 land! Can Ted go from busting Tim’s chops about not having a card (Sovereign Crawford Throwing 150) on a list that Ted swears up & down does exist.

To using the same card (Crawford Throwing Sovereign 150) that is in fact not confirmed (after he had to be told by Art & Brian) to pick apart Tim in this thread exactly one month later.

Love it!

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...reign+Crawford

12-20-2011 #55

“(2)....I'm quite skeptical of your claim that Crawford (throwing) "was not printed with a SOVEREIGN 150 back". My experience in completing a SOVEREIGN 402-card set (and since, going for a Master set) indicates that 12 (perhaps more) SOVEREIGN 150/350 subjects were Short-Printed with respect to their SOVEREIGN 150 backs.”

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Your...... "This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set " ...... What is your evidence of this hypothesis of yours ?

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so,
Wagner and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

What we know of the T206 timeline, circa May 1909 was the first release of the 150 series cards. Then, followed by circa August 1909 release of the HINDU cards.
Now, we would like to know what your release dates are with respect to the introduction of the PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAPORAL 150 and the SOVEREIGN 150 cards ?


TED Z

John

What the hell is a matter with you, lately ? ?

You have a habit of being confused about what people have posted on this forum.


I simply asked Tim a few questions here that have nothing to do with me questionong the Crawford (throwing) with a Sovereign 150 back.

Or, do we have to make an appointment thru you first....before we dare ask Tim a question ! ! ! ! ? ? ? ?


FYI....Art Martineau contacted me and convinced me this Crawford card does not exist and I acknowledged this in another thread.

For years I thought it might exist since Brian Weisner had identified this Crawford card with a Sovereign 150 back in Bill Brown's Super Set spreadsheet.

Recently, Brian acknowledged that this was a mistake.


Hey Tim....could you please answer my above questions ?

And, several of us would like to know what T206 backs are on this COLLAGE that you referred to ?






TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Speaking of not answering questions where's this Magie of yours?

John

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

Nothing wrong with me thanks for asking.

My comprehension skills are just fine I read what you type and I ask questions. I’m not the one who changes his tune each week to fit a new wacky theory that pops into your head. It’s hard to keep track of all of your theories BTW but I do my best. Nah you can ask Tim anything he always responds and is very nice about it too.

Funny you have asked Tim to answer your questions you have yet to answer my questions in this thread post #37 comes to mind. Don’t worry Ted I know why you avoided answering them it would be hard to make something up to cover that pile of fairy dust you tossed out. No worries...

“FYI....Art Martineau contacted me and convinced me this Crawford card does not exist and I acknowledged this in another thread.”

I saw that thread it’s above….funny. It’s a shame Art didn’t tell you about that card not being confirmed or the mistake Brian pointed out on the super set before you lied about owning it and having 151 cards in a 150 card Sovereign set huh?



http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=144282

“Therefore...... 156 - 5 = 151 and, indeed there are 151 cards in my SOVEREIGN set with the "SOVEREIGN 150 Subjects" printed on their backs” Post #31

You should really run some of your fish tales thru other folks prior to making up stories in the future. Perhaps now you can use the many T206 websites available to research your next tall tale that should make making stuff up easier and more effective.

Good luck with your next story can’t wait!

John

[Runscott]

Edited: Thanks, guys. Re-reading this thread multiple times, I think everything's been said, re-said, rebutted several times, etc.

Thanks for patiently answering my questions.

Carry on!

[atx840]

Good afternoon Ted,

That is a Chris Browne & Co generated image, I require author credit on all reposts of my images.

Sincerely CB

[tedzan]

Here's a guy (the Wonka dude), who several year ago picked up Scott Moseley and me and we visited with Hank and Scott Levy and Jerry Totino at the Levy's house.

We had a great time talking about and showing off our T206 collections. And, Scott Levy provided some great food.

I brought my all-SOVEREIGN set with me and everyone flipped thru the plastic pages in my album and looked at my graded SOVEREIGN's and thought it was a cool set,
really cool.

Several months later I was set-up at the old Philly Show in Reading, PA. The Wonka man came over to see me with his wife. He noticed that I had my SOVEREIGN set
on the table and asked to see my set again. Then he showed the set to his wife.

OK....all that is fine, or is it ?


A few months ago, Wonka posted on this forum that he doubted that I have a complete 402-card SOVEREIGN set (+ the 6 super-prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs). But people....there are witnesses who saw him see this set on two occasions ! ?

Hey Net54er's, you can try and figure what's going on here......I don't get it.

All I can say is......John get a "grip".......this obsession of yours is getting the best of you.

Anyhow....John....you will NOT see any more cards (or sets) from my collection. I'm through dealing with you.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Anyhow....John....you will NOT see any more cards (or sets) from my collection. I'm through dealing with you.TED Z

That’s very convenient and should work out well for you Ted especially given your history of tall tales of cards you don’t own.

You’re right Ted we all were collecting pals even more distributing for your constant need to make up stuff. No obsession other than I get tired of seeing you post bad info and tell tall tales of items that you don’t own. I don’t think it’s fair or right. You have nobody to blame but yourself. I’m only reposting claims you have made that have fallen flat or been proven to be outright fabrications. This misery or issues you see with me doing this is and always will be a bed of your own making.

Feel free to twist in an attempt to take what I have posted in a different direction anyone who can read can see you have once again made a claim to own something you don’t. That’s all and that’s the bigger question folks should be asking. Why does Ted do this to himself why make up stores of 151 cards when you have 150 why?

John
a.k.a. "The Wonka Dude"