Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[wonkaticket]

Scott,

Tim says exactly what I’ve been saying perhaps better. It’s all about timing and availability.

Look at the timeline that Ted is saying.

If those 12 players above were first to be printed with any of the three brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or Sovereign you would see more of Wagner & Plank with potentially all three brands but at the very least more of them with Sweet Caporal. They wouldn’t be missing and so absent.

Generally your first production is one of your bigger productions as it’s your launch, then subsequent productions could be bigger or smaller depending demand and sell thru. Since we can narrow down Plank and Wagner to only factory dist cards with the Sweet Caporal brand let’s focus on that for now.

If they did run as Ted says Plank and Wagner in the first 12 then for whatever reason Wagner was pulled effecting Plank how did it not affect the other 10 above with Sweet Caporal to some degree as well? The fact is it didn’t those other 12 are even found with the other brands.

If Plank was affected by the pull of Wagner and there was a cease & deist etc. from Plank to the ATC how come he shows up in the 350 series? I have even done some numbers of my own since mid 1999 about 50 individual Planks have come to sale or been publicly offered of which only about 12 or so have been 150 series cards. Showing roughly at glance that perhaps the 150’s are scarcer of Plank which has been the idea with many collectors for some time. This would suggest IMO that Plank was added towards the tail end of the 150 runs and carried over into the 350 before going away for whatever reason. If Plank was run in the spring of 1909 as Ted says then not pulled till 1910 that’s one long legal battle to have your card pulled or be affected by Wagner your sheet mate.

None of us are going to have the exact answer but saying Wagner & Plank were among the first 12 cards ever printed and looking at their numbers today compared with other 150 series cards just doesn’t add up IMO.

In regards to advertising in advance yes that does happen Scott but not so much with consumables maybe with the Wii or new iPhone but on household cleaners and smokes…not as much IMO.

In the end I wish Ted was right then we all could afford to get a nice Wagner & Plank as they would have printed quite a few of them in that very first flick of the switch at the factory before yanking them for whatever historical reason.

John

[steve B]

I do think that Plank was later, but also that the 12 plus Magie were earlier.

The timing of the ads does add a bit of doubt though. And a couple specific questions.
1) What were the advertising deadlines for sporting life. It may be in the magazine somewhere. It's conceivable that the ad copy had to be in more than a month before the publication date. Making the submission of the Wagner ad pretty close to or before the start of the promotion.

2) Being a weekly, the printing lead time would have been short for Sporting life, what was that lead time. In other words were they reporting on stuff that happened the week before the cover date, or stuff perhaps 2 weeks before since they needed printing and distribution time to get it together and on the newsstands.

If they were doing the week immediately prior to the publication date as SI does now that's very impressive given the technology of the day.

The timing I think could work is that the 12 cards (not including Plank but including Magie) went to press, fronts were printed for the SC press run, but partway in and while backs were being printed the Wagner had to be pulled. Production stopped while a new plate was made, and the second plate containing Magie went to press. The error was found and for some reason they decided to correct it. And that plate was pulled.
Both plates were wiped clear (Actually sets of stones, all 6+ for Wagner and maybe only the brown for Magie.) And laid out with the same subjects but with Brown Cubs replacing both errors.
Then being behind in production both plates were sent to press producing fronts which were used for only SC Piedmont and Hindu.
That timeline works for that set of cards based on how dificult each card is, the Brown is pretty easy and the rest of the group isn't while all but Wagner and Magie are roughly equal.

I'm thinking Soverign was printed after Hindu, as there are no soverign 150s that don't also have a 350 back available. (Unless the superset spreadsheet is misleading me again, in which case I'll have to do some serious remodeling of it since I find it easier to see patterns that way)

I can say that at least for bicycle parts advertising things that are either unavailable to the public or not in production yet was common. I wanted a particular set of pedals for about a year before the shop told me that while they were the main feature of a full page ad the company had not produced any. Yes, they advertised an unavailble product for a year or more. Silly but true. And as far as I can figure out they were never produced for that brand although they were made and sold by a european brand.

Steve B

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott,

Tim says exactly what I’ve been saying perhaps better. It’s all about timing and availability.

Look at the timeline that Ted is saying.

If those 12 players above were first to be printed with any of the three brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or Sovereign you would see more of Wagner & Plank with potentially all three brands but at the very least more of them with Sweet Caporal. They wouldn’t be missing and so absent.

Generally your first production is one of your bigger productions as it’s your launch, then subsequent productions could be bigger or smaller depending demand and sell thru. Since we can narrow down Plank and Wagner to only factory dist cards with the Sweet Caporal brand let’s focus on that for now.

If they did run as Ted says Plank and Wagner in the first 12 then for whatever reason Wagner was pulled effecting Plank how did it not affect the other 10 above with Sweet Caporal to some degree as well? The fact is it didn’t those other 12 are even found with the other brands.

If Plank was affected by the pull of Wagner and there was a cease & deist etc. from Plank to the ATC how come he shows up in the 350 series? I have even done some numbers of my own since mid 1999 about 50 individual Planks have come to sale or been publicly offered of which only about 12 or so have been 150 series cards. Showing roughly at glance that perhaps the 150’s are scarcer of Plank which has been the idea with many collectors for some time. This would suggest IMO that Plank was added towards the tail end of the 150 runs and carried over into the 350 before going away for whatever reason. If Plank was run in the spring of 1909 as Ted says then not pulled till 1910 that’s one long legal battle to have your card pulled or be affected by Wagner your sheet mate.

None of us are going to have the exact answer but saying Wagner & Plank were among the first 12 cards ever printed and looking at their numbers today compared with other 150 series cards just doesn’t add up IMO.

In regards to advertising in advance yes that does happen Scott but not so much with consumables maybe with the Wii or new iPhone but on household cleaners and smokes…not as much IMO.

In the end I wish Ted was right then we all could afford to get a nice Wagner & Plank as they would have printed quite a few of them in that very first flick of the switch at the factory before yanking them for whatever historical reason.

John

[Abravefan11]

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, your theory seems just as plausible as the others, but like the others, there's no hard evidence - just the 'indicators' that you mention. If you can put those indicators together in a way that proves your theory, you should do so.

For instance, the collage and the collection that you describe - this is great, but not 'proof' by any means. You are claiming that the fact that Plank and Wagner are NOT in either is some sort of proof that they weren't in the initial print run. That doesn't make sense simply because of the fact that we already know these two cards are scarce and therefore unlikely to be present in ANY collection, regardless of when it was printed.

I have not spent any time doing such research into the Plank/Wagner issue as you, Steve, Jim, Ted, John, etc. - I'm simply reading the results of your research and trying to make sense of all the various theories so that I can organize them in one place where they can be referenced and each judged on its own merits.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Tim, your theory seems just as plausible as the others, but like the others, there's no hard evidence - just the 'indicators' that you mention. If you can put those indicators together in a way that proves your theory, you should do so.

For instance, the collage and the collection that you describe - this is great, but not 'proof' by any means. You are claiming that the fact that Plank and Wagner are NOT in either is some sort of proof that they weren't in the initial print run. That doesn't make sense simply because of the fact that we already know these two cards are scarce and therefore unlikely to be present in ANY collection, regardless of when it was printed.

Scott - I'm going to do my best to explain as best I can and let me know if something isn't clear. I'll be happy to answer what I can.

The proof that Wagner, Plank and others were not printed in the first part of the 150 Series isn't the collages. It's evident by the different pieces of information we can gather to build a timeline for the 150 series. For example when certain backs were printed, which subjects were printed with them, the dates of some of the ledgers, and the advertisements.

The information that these five subjects were not in the original 150 subjects was made public before either of the collages were known. The collages don't prove anything but I believe they lend a great deal of support to the already stated information.

You're absolutely correct that almost any collection is going to be missing a Wagner and a Plank. But there are several points that are key to the collages.

1) Both collages consist of only subjects from print group 1.
2) Both include the subjects from print group 1 that were discontinued prior to the 350 series.
3) Both collages consist of cards adhered to a surface and remain in the way they were collected.

This tells us that they had to be collected during the 150 Series.

4) Both collages exclude Wagner, Plank and Crawford.

Yes, most collections from any given time will not include a Wagner or Plank, but the absence of Crawford in both and Jennings and Lungren in one further supports all of the other evidence that they were not added until later in the 150 Series. The information came before the collages and not the other way around.

In addition I think it's important to note the following when trying to understand Plank and Wagner:

Probably the most confusing part of the 150 Series, and the nuances of many of the subjects within it, is the Piedmont 150 back. It misleads many to think that if a subject can be found with this back that they must have been printed early in the 150 Series. The Magie subject shows us that it was the first back brand produced for the set. So was that when Plank, Wagner and the others were printed with Piedmont? Not at all. Packs of Piedmont cigarettes were issued with cards throughout the 150 Series, unlike brands like Sovereign and Hindu that were only available for a period of time. So Plank and Wagner were not in the initial Piedmont printing but were to be offered with a later offering of Piedmont 150's but ultimately not released.

So with brands like Hindu and Sovereign we have good evidence of what was happening during a given time in the series, but Piedmont and Sweet Caporal are much more difficult to understand.

I hope this better illustrates the points I was trying to make and again let me know if I can clarify anything.

[barrysloate]

About 5-6 years ago, a family consigned a large group of T206's to me that belonged to their father. It was an original intact collection, with several hundred Sovereigns in it. And also included was a Plank series 350. Does that shed any light on this?

[tedzan]

Barry

Thanks for bringing up this original SOVEREIGN collection (including the Plank card).

I won this large SOVEREIGN lot in your auction (Nov 2006).
Here is the description of the cards......

262 SOVEREIGN cards (including Green Cobb, 2-Johnson's, Speaker, CYoung, plus 34 HOFers)........
NOTE:
112 cards were SOVEREIGN 150
109 cards were SOVEREIGN 350
041 cards were SOVEREIGN 460

18 SOVEREIGN HOFers

Red Cobb SOVEREIGN 350

Cobb (bat on shoulder) SOVEREIGN 150

Cobb (bat off shoulder) SOVEREIGN 350

CYoung (portrait) SOVEREIGN 350

Plank......SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory 30


Sure was a great boost in helping me complete my all-SOVEREIGN set.

Thanks again, Barry


TED Z

[steve B]

AH! I see my mistake. For some reason I had it in my head that none of the 11 came with Sovereign. DOH!

I'm still interested in the lead time questions, they may make a difference in wether wagner being in the ad matters as much.

I still think that the group was on the same sheet or sheets and that either a pulled card was on the sheet and replaced by Brown Cubs or that he was double printed. The pattern for those 11 is pretty solid. Obviusly Wagner and Magie are out as well as Plank or yeah, there should be sovereigns of all of them.

I've got some rethinking to do......


I'm also reconsidering wether they might have pulled wagner/magie in the cutting phase. If the layout was blocks of a player it would have been easier, but there should still be a scrap or two if that was done.

Steve B

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, I was looking for your explanation of the 150 series on your website - in the page I found on your site, you state your theory as fact (as opposed to "we think", "evidence indicates", "most likely", etc.). I could not find the evidence that led you to these conclusions - you have alluded to it (ledger pages, advertising dates, etc.) but I can't find where you pull all that together. Is there a place on your site or elsewhere that lays all this out, so that it's easy for a numbskull like me to understand it (as opposed to simply stating it is fact). Please keep in mind that as you said, it took months of discussions for it to sink in for some when it was first presented to them, and I can promise I am probably even slower, but if you lay it out for me I might get it. Thanks.

Here was the page I found where you stated your conclusions, but I couldn't find the back-up: 150 series info on T206Resource.com

[Abravefan11]

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Runscott]

Thanks Tim. I was looking for that page, but the link was sending me somewhere else (I think ).

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple. You have alluded to backing facts that aren't being presented, and without those, it's a very interesting theory, but not convincing enough to state so definitively that other theories are rubbish. So far I'm getting the feeling that some of the evidence behind it is being taken by you all to mean something that could be interpreted differently;i.e - the advertising, as I've already explained (as have others).

Don't get me wrong - yours is as good as any presented. I doubt anyone would dispute that. Well, maybe a couple

Thanks,
Scott

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple.

Thanks,
Scott

We knew when the site went live that some areas would need additional information added. We decided that once we launched the best approach would be to listen to the feedback of the readers. If we receive questions about specific sections and it's evident more content is needed to clarify certain points we will be adding it. The entire site is a work in progress and will grow over time. Thanks for the feedback.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

Your...... "This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set " ...... What is your evidence of this hypothesis of yours ?

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so, Wagner
and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

What we know of the T206 timeline, circa May 1909 was the first release of the 150 series cards. Then, followed by circa August 1909 release of the HINDU cards.
Now, we would like to know what your release dates are with respect to the introduction of the PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAPORAL 150 and the SOVEREIGN 150 cards ?


TED Z

[Runscott]

Thanks, Tim - that's great!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Your...... "This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set " ...... What is your evidence of this hypothesis of yours ?

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so,
Wagner and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

What we know of the T206 timeline, circa May 1909 was the first release of the 150 series cards. Then, followed by circa August 1909 release of the HINDU cards.
Now, we would like to know what your release dates are with respect to the introduction of the PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAPORAL 150 and the SOVEREIGN 150 cards ?


TED Z

John

What the hell is a matter with you, lately ? ?

You have a habit of being confused about what people have posted on this forum.


I simply asked Tim a few questions here that have nothing to do with me questionong the Crawford (throwing) with a Sovereign 150 back.

Or, do we have to make an appointment thru you first....before we dare ask Tim a question ! ! ! ! ? ? ? ?


FYI....Art Martineau contacted me and convinced me this Crawford card does not exist and I acknowledged this in another thread.

For years I thought it might exist since Brian Weisner had identified this Crawford card with a Sovereign 150 back in Bill Brown's Super Set spreadsheet.

Recently, Brian acknowledged that this was a mistake.


Hey Tim....could you please answer my above questions ?

And, several of us would like to know what T206 backs are on this COLLAGE that you referred to ?






TED Z