Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[wonkaticket]

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

John, I'm reading your post very carefully, and I just don't get your logic.

Regarding advertising, while your company may have a great grasp on it, many don't - besides, advertising something in advance when it isn't yet available is not an anomaly. A multitude of events might have occurred to delay the printing of Sovereigns. Sure, the plan might have been that Sovereigns were 'THE' cigarette for the first run of T206s, but maybe there was an issue that caused that to not pan out...ink issue, design issue, anything could have caused a delay.

Regarding the short-printing of the Wagner and Plank, I don't get why they couldn't be in the first 150, but only a few sheets were printed. Also, no reason why they had to be hand-cut. Your logic might point to the more likely scenario, but given that we don't have any clear-cut answers, we can't really throw out any possibilities.

[Abravefan11]

A few things:

Wagner, Plank, Carwford (Throwing), Lundgren (Chicago) and Jennings (Portrait) were not included at the beginning of the 150 Series. These subjects are all absent from initial print runs that included the Sovereign 150 backs. Only the original 150 Subjects were printed at this time.

Besides just the back data two collections that were assembled during the time the 150 Series was being distributed support this information. The first was the collage that was auctioned recently. It included all of the original 150 Subjects with the exception of Kling, but the five noted subjects were not present. Steve C. did a nice write up explaining it in post #7 of this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145675

The second was a collection that was shared with me after the collage thread that included all 150 original subjects as well as Lundgren and Jennings. But no Plank, Wagner or Crawford. These were assembled similarly to the collage that was auctioned and hadn't been removed from where they had been since being collected. They really are a great snapshot of the set at a given moment in time.

Of the initial twelve proposed to be the first cards printed in the T206 set in the OP the above address Wagner and Plank. The ten remaining on this list were not printed or produced any differently than the other 140 of the original 150 Subjects during the 150 Series. One of the last 150 Series printings was brown Hindu and all 10 of these subjects were included in that back run. The only thing that sets these cards apart from the other 140 is that they were discontinued when print group 1 began being printed with 350 Series backs.

[wonkaticket]

Scott,

Tim says exactly what I’ve been saying perhaps better. It’s all about timing and availability.

Look at the timeline that Ted is saying.

If those 12 players above were first to be printed with any of the three brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or Sovereign you would see more of Wagner & Plank with potentially all three brands but at the very least more of them with Sweet Caporal. They wouldn’t be missing and so absent.

Generally your first production is one of your bigger productions as it’s your launch, then subsequent productions could be bigger or smaller depending demand and sell thru. Since we can narrow down Plank and Wagner to only factory dist cards with the Sweet Caporal brand let’s focus on that for now.

If they did run as Ted says Plank and Wagner in the first 12 then for whatever reason Wagner was pulled effecting Plank how did it not affect the other 10 above with Sweet Caporal to some degree as well? The fact is it didn’t those other 12 are even found with the other brands.

If Plank was affected by the pull of Wagner and there was a cease & deist etc. from Plank to the ATC how come he shows up in the 350 series? I have even done some numbers of my own since mid 1999 about 50 individual Planks have come to sale or been publicly offered of which only about 12 or so have been 150 series cards. Showing roughly at glance that perhaps the 150’s are scarcer of Plank which has been the idea with many collectors for some time. This would suggest IMO that Plank was added towards the tail end of the 150 runs and carried over into the 350 before going away for whatever reason. If Plank was run in the spring of 1909 as Ted says then not pulled till 1910 that’s one long legal battle to have your card pulled or be affected by Wagner your sheet mate.

None of us are going to have the exact answer but saying Wagner & Plank were among the first 12 cards ever printed and looking at their numbers today compared with other 150 series cards just doesn’t add up IMO.

In regards to advertising in advance yes that does happen Scott but not so much with consumables maybe with the Wii or new iPhone but on household cleaners and smokes…not as much IMO.

In the end I wish Ted was right then we all could afford to get a nice Wagner & Plank as they would have printed quite a few of them in that very first flick of the switch at the factory before yanking them for whatever historical reason.

John

[steve B]

I do think that Plank was later, but also that the 12 plus Magie were earlier.

The timing of the ads does add a bit of doubt though. And a couple specific questions.
1) What were the advertising deadlines for sporting life. It may be in the magazine somewhere. It's conceivable that the ad copy had to be in more than a month before the publication date. Making the submission of the Wagner ad pretty close to or before the start of the promotion.

2) Being a weekly, the printing lead time would have been short for Sporting life, what was that lead time. In other words were they reporting on stuff that happened the week before the cover date, or stuff perhaps 2 weeks before since they needed printing and distribution time to get it together and on the newsstands.

If they were doing the week immediately prior to the publication date as SI does now that's very impressive given the technology of the day.

The timing I think could work is that the 12 cards (not including Plank but including Magie) went to press, fronts were printed for the SC press run, but partway in and while backs were being printed the Wagner had to be pulled. Production stopped while a new plate was made, and the second plate containing Magie went to press. The error was found and for some reason they decided to correct it. And that plate was pulled.
Both plates were wiped clear (Actually sets of stones, all 6+ for Wagner and maybe only the brown for Magie.) And laid out with the same subjects but with Brown Cubs replacing both errors.
Then being behind in production both plates were sent to press producing fronts which were used for only SC Piedmont and Hindu.
That timeline works for that set of cards based on how dificult each card is, the Brown is pretty easy and the rest of the group isn't while all but Wagner and Magie are roughly equal.

I'm thinking Soverign was printed after Hindu, as there are no soverign 150s that don't also have a 350 back available. (Unless the superset spreadsheet is misleading me again, in which case I'll have to do some serious remodeling of it since I find it easier to see patterns that way)

I can say that at least for bicycle parts advertising things that are either unavailable to the public or not in production yet was common. I wanted a particular set of pedals for about a year before the shop told me that while they were the main feature of a full page ad the company had not produced any. Yes, they advertised an unavailble product for a year or more. Silly but true. And as far as I can figure out they were never produced for that brand although they were made and sold by a european brand.

Steve B

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott,

Tim says exactly what I’ve been saying perhaps better. It’s all about timing and availability.

Look at the timeline that Ted is saying.

If those 12 players above were first to be printed with any of the three brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or Sovereign you would see more of Wagner & Plank with potentially all three brands but at the very least more of them with Sweet Caporal. They wouldn’t be missing and so absent.

Generally your first production is one of your bigger productions as it’s your launch, then subsequent productions could be bigger or smaller depending demand and sell thru. Since we can narrow down Plank and Wagner to only factory dist cards with the Sweet Caporal brand let’s focus on that for now.

If they did run as Ted says Plank and Wagner in the first 12 then for whatever reason Wagner was pulled effecting Plank how did it not affect the other 10 above with Sweet Caporal to some degree as well? The fact is it didn’t those other 12 are even found with the other brands.

If Plank was affected by the pull of Wagner and there was a cease & deist etc. from Plank to the ATC how come he shows up in the 350 series? I have even done some numbers of my own since mid 1999 about 50 individual Planks have come to sale or been publicly offered of which only about 12 or so have been 150 series cards. Showing roughly at glance that perhaps the 150’s are scarcer of Plank which has been the idea with many collectors for some time. This would suggest IMO that Plank was added towards the tail end of the 150 runs and carried over into the 350 before going away for whatever reason. If Plank was run in the spring of 1909 as Ted says then not pulled till 1910 that’s one long legal battle to have your card pulled or be affected by Wagner your sheet mate.

None of us are going to have the exact answer but saying Wagner & Plank were among the first 12 cards ever printed and looking at their numbers today compared with other 150 series cards just doesn’t add up IMO.

In regards to advertising in advance yes that does happen Scott but not so much with consumables maybe with the Wii or new iPhone but on household cleaners and smokes…not as much IMO.

In the end I wish Ted was right then we all could afford to get a nice Wagner & Plank as they would have printed quite a few of them in that very first flick of the switch at the factory before yanking them for whatever historical reason.

John

[Abravefan11]

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, your theory seems just as plausible as the others, but like the others, there's no hard evidence - just the 'indicators' that you mention. If you can put those indicators together in a way that proves your theory, you should do so.

For instance, the collage and the collection that you describe - this is great, but not 'proof' by any means. You are claiming that the fact that Plank and Wagner are NOT in either is some sort of proof that they weren't in the initial print run. That doesn't make sense simply because of the fact that we already know these two cards are scarce and therefore unlikely to be present in ANY collection, regardless of when it was printed.

I have not spent any time doing such research into the Plank/Wagner issue as you, Steve, Jim, Ted, John, etc. - I'm simply reading the results of your research and trying to make sense of all the various theories so that I can organize them in one place where they can be referenced and each judged on its own merits.

[steve B]

AH! I see my mistake. For some reason I had it in my head that none of the 11 came with Sovereign. DOH!

I'm still interested in the lead time questions, they may make a difference in wether wagner being in the ad matters as much.

I still think that the group was on the same sheet or sheets and that either a pulled card was on the sheet and replaced by Brown Cubs or that he was double printed. The pattern for those 11 is pretty solid. Obviusly Wagner and Magie are out as well as Plank or yeah, there should be sovereigns of all of them.

I've got some rethinking to do......


I'm also reconsidering wether they might have pulled wagner/magie in the cutting phase. If the layout was blocks of a player it would have been easier, but there should still be a scrap or two if that was done.

Steve B

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, I was looking for your explanation of the 150 series on your website - in the page I found on your site, you state your theory as fact (as opposed to "we think", "evidence indicates", "most likely", etc.). I could not find the evidence that led you to these conclusions - you have alluded to it (ledger pages, advertising dates, etc.) but I can't find where you pull all that together. Is there a place on your site or elsewhere that lays all this out, so that it's easy for a numbskull like me to understand it (as opposed to simply stating it is fact). Please keep in mind that as you said, it took months of discussions for it to sink in for some when it was first presented to them, and I can promise I am probably even slower, but if you lay it out for me I might get it. Thanks.

Here was the page I found where you stated your conclusions, but I couldn't find the back-up: 150 series info on T206Resource.com

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

John

TELL US ALL......how do you know how many PIEDMONT versions of these two subjects were actually printed....NOT SHIPPED....just PRINTED ? ?

The truth is NO ONE KNOWS !


In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here.
When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner &
Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.

Batches of the ten 150-Only cards were shipped to PIEDMONT Factory #25 (VA) and were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in areas South of New York
and New England.

That includes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, so you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand why ALC was not going to ship PIEDMONT Wagner & Plank cards to
the Richmond Factory.

Now, the question is.....why were SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 Wagner & Plank cards shipped to Richmond to possibly be marketed in the Pennsylvania area ?

My guess on that is a few sneaked out of ALC. A meaningful test of this would be a survey of how many Wagner & Plank cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 vs
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here. When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner & Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.

Batches of the ten 150-Only cards were shipped to PIEDMONT Factory #25 (VA) and were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in areas South of New York and New England.

That includes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, so you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand why ALC was not going to ship PIEDMONT Wagner & Plank cards to the Richmond Factory.

Now, the question is.....why were SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 Wagner & Plank cards shipped to Richmond to possibly be marketed in the Pennsylvania area ?

My guess on that is a few sneaked out of ALC. A meaningful test of this would be a survey of how many Wagner & Plank cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 vs SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 ?

TED Z

Ted - With all due respect, none of that is true.

[Runscott]

John - thanks for responding to my post. I think it's good to get some others involved, as right now it's just more of the old alignment of you and Tim vs Ted. We aren't getting anywhere with that.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Runscott

John - thanks for responding to my post. I think it's good to get some others involved, as right now it's just more of the old alignment of you and Tim vs Ted. We aren't getting anywhere with that.

Scott it's just not that simple....

Scott it isn't a me vs. Ted thing it's a me vs. tale tales presented as fact on a public forum thing. You start weaving tale tales, making up cards that don’t exist. Telling folks you own things you don’t. Start messing with lists that folks as a collective community have worked on for years all the while claiming them as your own. Post pure fantasy topics as fact. All while having an attitude about it then when your called to task for your own actions cry victim and I’ll question your thoughts and comments as well.

Cheers,

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott it's just not that simple....

Scott it isn't a me vs. Ted thing it's a me vs. tale tales presented as fact on a public forum thing. You start weaving tale tales, making up cards that don’t exist. Telling folks you own things you don’t. Start messing with lists that folks as a collective community have worked on for years all the while claiming them as your own. Post pure fantasy topics as fact. All while having an attitude about it then when your called to task for your own actions cry victim and I’ll question your thoughts and comments as well.

Cheers,

John

Thanks, John. I understand. I will attempt to gather the unbiased parts of each theory, write something up, send it for review to those whose input I've filched, and go from there.

Also, Thank Tim and Ted for the detail you've both sent me.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

[B]The truth is NO ONE KNOWS !
In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here.When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner &
Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.TED Z

Ted you’re fantasy’s are just too much for me I presented some good questions/evidence here has Tim. All you have are misc dates you pulled out your thoughts that Plank was giving the ATC cease & desist letters and your pulled from thin air these are the first 12 players ever printed and you have the nerve to say I don’t know or have evidence.

Read your above statement Ted. In 1909 the ATC started cranking out several press runs of Wagner & Plank really? And you know this how? Plank said he didn’t want his image with tobacco and notified the ATC. Again you know this how? The ATC immediately clipped off Wagner & Plank from Piedmont. Once again you know this how?

YOU don’t know this either. The above is pure speculation or fantasy until you have hard evidence.

Yeah Plank was so against his image that the ATC “immediately” pulled his Piedmont card from the original 12 and a few Sweet Cap 150’s slipped out. The ATC seemed to be so worried about the so called litigation from Plank that you theorize about so much that ATC let some 350’s of Plank slip out months to almost a year later as well.

I don’t know for fact how many Piedmont Wagners or Planks were printed never claimed too. Or if they were ever printed in fact I say I doubt they were ever printed for production. Hence my disagreement with you and your thoughts. Ted YOU also have no idea if they ever even made it to production for distribution with the Piedmont brand but it doesn’t stop you from typing it as fact.

Seeing as we only have 2 Wagners and 3 Planks known to date with Piedmont 150 backs all which are hand cut or missing color or something. Seems like a very logical thought they never did make it into distribution as factory finished cards. We draw the same conclusion on Brown Old Mill and there are more examples of Brown Old Mill than Piedmont 150’s of Plank and Wagner…so why do we toss that logic here because you say so?

Ted have at it for the rest of the thread. I’m finished trying to share information with you or even question your ideas. It’s so painfully clear all you want is pats on the back and to be told how smart you are. There is no real quest for you to figure out this set. Your main goal is to convince everyone that you’re right and that all things T206 in regards of knowledge have some ties to you in some shape or form.

Ted if anyone needs evidence at this point it’s you for the record. I’m not the one with a laundry list of fantasy theories. I’m not the person with a history of tall tales and faked scans of cards that don’t exist. I’m not the one with stories of cards I don’t own. I’m not the one who when challenged to produce cards of question has excuses of “opps just sold him” or ends up posting fake scans. You are a real enigma Ted I have never met someone so hell bent on being taken as a serious scholar who limelight’s with fish stories and tall tales. You really make me laugh sometimes even if some of the stuff isn’t so funny.

John