Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[Abravefan11]

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Runscott]

Thanks Tim. I was looking for that page, but the link was sending me somewhere else (I think ).

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple. You have alluded to backing facts that aren't being presented, and without those, it's a very interesting theory, but not convincing enough to state so definitively that other theories are rubbish. So far I'm getting the feeling that some of the evidence behind it is being taken by you all to mean something that could be interpreted differently;i.e - the advertising, as I've already explained (as have others).

Don't get me wrong - yours is as good as any presented. I doubt anyone would dispute that. Well, maybe a couple

Thanks,
Scott

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple.

Thanks,
Scott

We knew when the site went live that some areas would need additional information added. We decided that once we launched the best approach would be to listen to the feedback of the readers. If we receive questions about specific sections and it's evident more content is needed to clarify certain points we will be adding it. The entire site is a work in progress and will grow over time. Thanks for the feedback.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

We knew when the site went live that some areas would need additional information added. We decided that once we launched the best approach would be to listen to the feedback of the readers. If we receive questions about specific sections and it's evident more content is needed to clarify certain points we will be adding it. The entire site is a work in progress and will grow over time. Thanks for the feedback.

Thanks Tim. Sadly, I don't think the 'where did Plank and Wagner start off?' discussion is going anywhere without your backing evidence, but that's fine. We have a couple of theories with very little to back them up and that's basically where we were a year ago.

If you ever decide to publish your evidence that backs up your theory, I will be the first to read it.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

Your...... "This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set " ...... What is your evidence of this hypothesis of yours ?

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so, Wagner
and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

What we know of the T206 timeline, circa May 1909 was the first release of the 150 series cards. Then, followed by circa August 1909 release of the HINDU cards.
Now, we would like to know what your release dates are with respect to the introduction of the PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAPORAL 150 and the SOVEREIGN 150 cards ?


TED Z

[Runscott]

Thanks, Tim - that's great!

[wonkaticket]

Classic Ted Z.

LMAO, Only in Net54 land! Can Ted go from busting Tim’s chops about not having a card (Sovereign Crawford Throwing 150) on a list that Ted swears up & down does exist.

To using the same card (Crawford Throwing Sovereign 150) that is in fact not confirmed (after he had to be told by Art & Brian) to pick apart Tim in this thread exactly one month later.

Love it!

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...reign+Crawford

12-20-2011 #55

“(2)....I'm quite skeptical of your claim that Crawford (throwing) "was not printed with a SOVEREIGN 150 back". My experience in completing a SOVEREIGN 402-card set (and since, going for a Master set) indicates that 12 (perhaps more) SOVEREIGN 150/350 subjects were Short-Printed with respect to their SOVEREIGN 150 backs.”

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Your...... "This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set " ...... What is your evidence of this hypothesis of yours ?

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so,
Wagner and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

What we know of the T206 timeline, circa May 1909 was the first release of the 150 series cards. Then, followed by circa August 1909 release of the HINDU cards.
Now, we would like to know what your release dates are with respect to the introduction of the PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAPORAL 150 and the SOVEREIGN 150 cards ?


TED Z

John

What the hell is a matter with you, lately ? ?

You have a habit of being confused about what people have posted on this forum.


I simply asked Tim a few questions here that have nothing to do with me questionong the Crawford (throwing) with a Sovereign 150 back.

Or, do we have to make an appointment thru you first....before we dare ask Tim a question ! ! ! ! ? ? ? ?


FYI....Art Martineau contacted me and convinced me this Crawford card does not exist and I acknowledged this in another thread.

For years I thought it might exist since Brian Weisner had identified this Crawford card with a Sovereign 150 back in Bill Brown's Super Set spreadsheet.

Recently, Brian acknowledged that this was a mistake.


Hey Tim....could you please answer my above questions ?

And, several of us would like to know what T206 backs are on this COLLAGE that you referred to ?






TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Speaking of not answering questions where's this Magie of yours?

John

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

Nothing wrong with me thanks for asking.

My comprehension skills are just fine I read what you type and I ask questions. I’m not the one who changes his tune each week to fit a new wacky theory that pops into your head. It’s hard to keep track of all of your theories BTW but I do my best. Nah you can ask Tim anything he always responds and is very nice about it too.

Funny you have asked Tim to answer your questions you have yet to answer my questions in this thread post #37 comes to mind. Don’t worry Ted I know why you avoided answering them it would be hard to make something up to cover that pile of fairy dust you tossed out. No worries...

“FYI....Art Martineau contacted me and convinced me this Crawford card does not exist and I acknowledged this in another thread.”

I saw that thread it’s above….funny. It’s a shame Art didn’t tell you about that card not being confirmed or the mistake Brian pointed out on the super set before you lied about owning it and having 151 cards in a 150 card Sovereign set huh?



http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=144282

“Therefore...... 156 - 5 = 151 and, indeed there are 151 cards in my SOVEREIGN set with the "SOVEREIGN 150 Subjects" printed on their backs” Post #31

You should really run some of your fish tales thru other folks prior to making up stories in the future. Perhaps now you can use the many T206 websites available to research your next tall tale that should make making stuff up easier and more effective.

Good luck with your next story can’t wait!

John

[Runscott]

Edited: Thanks, guys. Re-reading this thread multiple times, I think everything's been said, re-said, rebutted several times, etc.

Thanks for patiently answering my questions.

Carry on!

[atx840]

Good afternoon Ted,

That is a Chris Browne & Co generated image, I require author credit on all reposts of my images.

Sincerely CB

[tedzan]

Here's a guy (the Wonka dude), who several year ago picked up Scott Moseley and me and we visited with Hank and Scott Levy and Jerry Totino at the Levy's house.

We had a great time talking about and showing off our T206 collections. And, Scott Levy provided some great food.

I brought my all-SOVEREIGN set with me and everyone flipped thru the plastic pages in my album and looked at my graded SOVEREIGN's and thought it was a cool set,
really cool.

Several months later I was set-up at the old Philly Show in Reading, PA. The Wonka man came over to see me with his wife. He noticed that I had my SOVEREIGN set
on the table and asked to see my set again. Then he showed the set to his wife.

OK....all that is fine, or is it ?


A few months ago, Wonka posted on this forum that he doubted that I have a complete 402-card SOVEREIGN set (+ the 6 super-prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs). But people....there are witnesses who saw him see this set on two occasions ! ?

Hey Net54er's, you can try and figure what's going on here......I don't get it.

All I can say is......John get a "grip".......this obsession of yours is getting the best of you.

Anyhow....John....you will NOT see any more cards (or sets) from my collection. I'm through dealing with you.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Anyhow....John....you will NOT see any more cards (or sets) from my collection. I'm through dealing with you.TED Z

That’s very convenient and should work out well for you Ted especially given your history of tall tales of cards you don’t own.

You’re right Ted we all were collecting pals even more distributing for your constant need to make up stuff. No obsession other than I get tired of seeing you post bad info and tell tall tales of items that you don’t own. I don’t think it’s fair or right. You have nobody to blame but yourself. I’m only reposting claims you have made that have fallen flat or been proven to be outright fabrications. This misery or issues you see with me doing this is and always will be a bed of your own making.

Feel free to twist in an attempt to take what I have posted in a different direction anyone who can read can see you have once again made a claim to own something you don’t. That’s all and that’s the bigger question folks should be asking. Why does Ted do this to himself why make up stores of 151 cards when you have 150 why?

John
a.k.a. "The Wonka Dude"

[Abravefan11]

Ted - Your questions alone show that you and I are essentially speaking two different languages concerning how the T206 set was produced. If we can not agree on the basic foundations of the set, then discussing almost any other aspect of the set is an exercise in futility. With that said I will do my best to answer your questions.

Lets start with these questions.

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

The way your presenting my opinion with your concepts of the set is not accurate. Your presenting the timeline of the printing of each back brand as if it only happened once during the series. So if a card is possible with a Piedmont 150 back than it must have been printed in the first offering of the set. We don't believe that this was true for all backs. We do believe that Sovereign was only produced during the early part of the 150 Series and was not printed again later. We do believe that Hindu was only printed at the end of the 150 Series and not in the early offerings. But we do believe that Piedmont and Sweet Caporal were printed more than one time throughout the 150 Series.

So a subject like Crawford could have been absent from the initial offering of Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal, but still have been printed later in the 150 Series with Sweet Caporal and Piedmont backs.

The same situations apply to the Jennings card. In both cases you are asking for an explanation for why they're absent in the Hindu set. That's a great question? Why did ATC/ALC not print a large portion of the available subjects with Hindu backs? They definitely intended to print them with Hindu, just as they intended to print all 48 southern league subjects, but they didn't. The advertisements clearly state 150 Subjects, yet they only printed 102. These two subjects aren't unique in being excluded from that offering, a 1/3 of the major-league subjects didn't get printed with this back. So the fact that they aren't found with a Hindu back has no bearing on this issue. (IMO)

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so, Wagner
and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

As I stated before we believe that the initial offering of cards in the early summer of 1909 were only the original 150 subjects. Wagner and Plank were not part of this printing. If they had been they would have been printed with a Sovereign 150 back. We believe when they were first added to the set they were included with a Sweet Caporal offering for factories 25 and 30. After that when they began to print them with a Piedmont back they were removed prior to being distributed.

Earlier in this thread I discussed how Sweet Caporal and Piedmont are extremely complicated to decipher because unlike Sovereign and Hindu they weren't offered for a limited time. During the 350 Series Piedmont adds ran once a week from February to August advertising that baseball cards were included in each pack. I don't believe this lengthy distribution was accomplished with a single production of Piedmont backed cards, but rather repeated printings of this back throughout the series. We believe the same holds true for the 150 series.

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

I hope I've cleared up the printing of the various backs so you'll understand I'm not saying that the Sovereign set proceeded Piedmont and Sweet Caporal. I am saying that I believe that additional printings of Piedmont and Sweet Caporal followed the Sovereign printing.

And, several of us would like to know what T206 backs are on this COLLAGE that you referred to ?

If anything that I've said has made sense up to this point, you'll know the answer to this question.

I hope this clears up any of the confusion about what I believe.