Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Steve B

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[steve B]

Thanks Ted

1 I guess it's just an error on the spreadsheet. Good to know, now I just have to figure out how to remove the EP blocks.


2 I'm coming to think that the Magie and Magee should be considered as individual cards, Magie a 150 only and Magee a 150/350. I makes sense that if the error was in an early sheet and replaced they would have had to redo the brown artwork with the correct spelling and laydown an entirely new plate with the corrected version later, late enough that it ended up in the 150/350 group.

3) My thoughts change constantly on Plank as I learn more about that one card. considering your answer clarifies some of what I'd been thinking but didn't state well first time around.

I thought Plank was on an early 150/350 sheet rather than a 150 only sheet, but that seems wrong now finding out that the only Piedmont 150 ones are hand cut.
The Philadelphia area and other than philadelphia being treated differently at factory 649 doesn't directly affect Plank of course, but probably does affect Powers.
But the other factories would have used the same sheets, so if for instance Plank was removed after printing a small batch of SC 150 factory 30 and Powers added in extra quantity that might explain the Plank being so tough.

My thought on the 350 Plank - And now that I know there's only one that bit seems more likely- is that they were either using some of the sheets with the pulled cards as the make ready sheets and one got into the stack of production cards. It happens sometimes.
So I guess it could technically be considered a wrongback T206.

I'm not sure about the factory discarding particular cards. It could easily be done at the cutting stage but it's a bit labor intensive. I'd also expect a stack of one of the withdrawn cards to have turned up. It's a lot easier for a worker to stuff a handful of a card he's throwing away into a pocket than it is for them to bring home an entire sheet. Not to mention how attractive American Lithos trash must have been to the local kids.
Stopping production and simply not printing them would have been far easier.

Johns Point about the advertisements showing Wagner only coming out later in the summer of 09 seems to throw a wrench into both our theories. I just don't know enough about typical magazine lead times and publishing dates of that era. I'll have to do a bit of thinking on the timeline and some looking at my old magazines to see what I can find.

Steve B

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted,

There are (2) Piedmont Wagners that I know of both I think most would agree are trimmed or hand cut although one does reside in it’s wonderful PSA 8 holder. This card (PSA 8) is also the cornerstone of the grading industry yet the sheet mate Plank gets the AUTH years later too funny but I’m getting off point here LOL.

My point is taking Sovereign out of the mix, even taking Hindu out of the mix and focusing solely on Piedmont the ATC’s anchor brand as you say. Then answer this…..
Why can I get all the original 150 subjects with Piedmont 150 (not to mention Sovereign & Hindu) non hand cut such as the (2) lonely sole Wagners? Same goes for Plank 150’s of which there are (3) lonely hand cut cards one missingcolor too boot.





If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also.

John

1......Again, you agree with me regarding the PIEDMONT Wagner and Plank cards were "sheet-mates". We are making progress.

And yes, it is quite paradoxical that the Gretzky Wagner was graded as a PSA 8 card in the 1990's. While, in recent years, the Charlie Conlon Plank was graded as
an AUTHENTIC card by PSA. Although both these cards originated from the same source.

2......First, make no mistake, in the big picture....T206's with PIEDMONT backs outnumber T206's with all the SWEET CAPORAL backs by a factor of approx. 4 to 1.
This factor takes into account all cards of these two major brands that were tallied in two independent T206 surveys (18,000+ randomly sampled cards). You can
sample 100,000 - T206's and this ratio will not change that much.

With respect to the Wagner & Plank cards, it is obvious to anyone that the only brand of these two subjects that got into cigarette packs is the SWEET CAPORAL
brand. Why their PIEDMONT counterparts never got into cigarette packs remains a mystery, given the predominance of the PIEDMONT cards.

Now, consider this....if Wagner & Plank were NOT in this first press run; but, were printed subsequent to it (circa Summer/Fall of 1909) these two guys would also
have HINDU and SOVEREIGN backs....as the other 10 subjects in this initial press run have.

Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner
to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set.

That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.


TED Z

[Runscott]

Ted - quit arguing with John and send me the Plank info I asked for

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

One last time I do not agree with you that Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together for the first 150 production run of cards. I have explained that very clear above.

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

http://t206resource.com/Sporting%20Life%20Ads.html
Check out this site you might learn something...kidding...but here are the ads for the other folks to see.

When they were added, why they were pulled, how they were pulled is anyone’s guess. But it’s safe to say if they were in the first production run if so I’d have them in my collection today with diff backs and they wouldn’t cost me or anyone else six figures plus.

“Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set. That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.”

Pure speculation and fantasy. It proves nothing. I produce mocks all the time for pre-production of goods they have very little to do with the true initial production runs and many mocks and molds aren’t brought into production until way later in the production or marketing process. Sure they are thought out ahead of time but that doesn’t mean they make the first cut.

Ted much of these things you present and argue as fact are just wild ideas with very little substance to back them. In fact if anything there are more holes in your ideas than solid direction and insight. It’s ok to have theories we all have some but very few of us argue and present them as fact. The only fact here is unless a sheet or notes lands in our laps we will never truly know.

Unrelated Note: Do I think that Conlon’s Plank came from off the same strip from the back room trimming yes I think it is very likely. BTW this is not your theory or insight either Ted about the McNall Wagner trim job this story has been passed around the hobby forever. As far as the Conlon Plank the plausible sheet mate you found about that when the card went of in REA. You’re not posting anything new for me to agree with you on so there’s no progress to be made.

John

P.S. Where’s the beef…or should I say where’s the Magie?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

Realizing I am probably just continuing to amuse myself....

John, early advertising could have included Sovereign, even if Sovereign wasn't printed until after Sweet Caporal and Piedmont. And certainly, if there were suspected issues with printing Wagner and Plank, ATC would likely have limited their printing (as they obviously did), and one way of doing that would have been to only print them on SOME of the Piedmont and Sweet Caporal runs, and NONE of the Sovereign runs.

There is no reason that Ted's line of reasoning should be considered invalid simply because there aren't Sovereign-backed examples.

okay, ignore me and carry on with your 2-way discussion...

[wonkaticket]

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

John, I'm reading your post very carefully, and I just don't get your logic.

Regarding advertising, while your company may have a great grasp on it, many don't - besides, advertising something in advance when it isn't yet available is not an anomaly. A multitude of events might have occurred to delay the printing of Sovereigns. Sure, the plan might have been that Sovereigns were 'THE' cigarette for the first run of T206s, but maybe there was an issue that caused that to not pan out...ink issue, design issue, anything could have caused a delay.

Regarding the short-printing of the Wagner and Plank, I don't get why they couldn't be in the first 150, but only a few sheets were printed. Also, no reason why they had to be hand-cut. Your logic might point to the more likely scenario, but given that we don't have any clear-cut answers, we can't really throw out any possibilities.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

John

TELL US ALL......how do you know how many PIEDMONT versions of these two subjects were actually printed....NOT SHIPPED....just PRINTED ? ?

The truth is NO ONE KNOWS !


In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here.
When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner &
Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.

Batches of the ten 150-Only cards were shipped to PIEDMONT Factory #25 (VA) and were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in areas South of New York
and New England.

That includes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, so you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand why ALC was not going to ship PIEDMONT Wagner & Plank cards to
the Richmond Factory.

Now, the question is.....why were SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 Wagner & Plank cards shipped to Richmond to possibly be marketed in the Pennsylvania area ?

My guess on that is a few sneaked out of ALC. A meaningful test of this would be a survey of how many Wagner & Plank cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 vs
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 ?


TED Z