Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, your theory seems just as plausible as the others, but like the others, there's no hard evidence - just the 'indicators' that you mention. If you can put those indicators together in a way that proves your theory, you should do so.

For instance, the collage and the collection that you describe - this is great, but not 'proof' by any means. You are claiming that the fact that Plank and Wagner are NOT in either is some sort of proof that they weren't in the initial print run. That doesn't make sense simply because of the fact that we already know these two cards are scarce and therefore unlikely to be present in ANY collection, regardless of when it was printed.

I have not spent any time doing such research into the Plank/Wagner issue as you, Steve, Jim, Ted, John, etc. - I'm simply reading the results of your research and trying to make sense of all the various theories so that I can organize them in one place where they can be referenced and each judged on its own merits.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Tim, your theory seems just as plausible as the others, but like the others, there's no hard evidence - just the 'indicators' that you mention. If you can put those indicators together in a way that proves your theory, you should do so.

For instance, the collage and the collection that you describe - this is great, but not 'proof' by any means. You are claiming that the fact that Plank and Wagner are NOT in either is some sort of proof that they weren't in the initial print run. That doesn't make sense simply because of the fact that we already know these two cards are scarce and therefore unlikely to be present in ANY collection, regardless of when it was printed.

Scott - I'm going to do my best to explain as best I can and let me know if something isn't clear. I'll be happy to answer what I can.

The proof that Wagner, Plank and others were not printed in the first part of the 150 Series isn't the collages. It's evident by the different pieces of information we can gather to build a timeline for the 150 series. For example when certain backs were printed, which subjects were printed with them, the dates of some of the ledgers, and the advertisements.

The information that these five subjects were not in the original 150 subjects was made public before either of the collages were known. The collages don't prove anything but I believe they lend a great deal of support to the already stated information.

You're absolutely correct that almost any collection is going to be missing a Wagner and a Plank. But there are several points that are key to the collages.

1) Both collages consist of only subjects from print group 1.
2) Both include the subjects from print group 1 that were discontinued prior to the 350 series.
3) Both collages consist of cards adhered to a surface and remain in the way they were collected.

This tells us that they had to be collected during the 150 Series.

4) Both collages exclude Wagner, Plank and Crawford.

Yes, most collections from any given time will not include a Wagner or Plank, but the absence of Crawford in both and Jennings and Lungren in one further supports all of the other evidence that they were not added until later in the 150 Series. The information came before the collages and not the other way around.

In addition I think it's important to note the following when trying to understand Plank and Wagner:

Probably the most confusing part of the 150 Series, and the nuances of many of the subjects within it, is the Piedmont 150 back. It misleads many to think that if a subject can be found with this back that they must have been printed early in the 150 Series. The Magie subject shows us that it was the first back brand produced for the set. So was that when Plank, Wagner and the others were printed with Piedmont? Not at all. Packs of Piedmont cigarettes were issued with cards throughout the 150 Series, unlike brands like Sovereign and Hindu that were only available for a period of time. So Plank and Wagner were not in the initial Piedmont printing but were to be offered with a later offering of Piedmont 150's but ultimately not released.

So with brands like Hindu and Sovereign we have good evidence of what was happening during a given time in the series, but Piedmont and Sweet Caporal are much more difficult to understand.

I hope this better illustrates the points I was trying to make and again let me know if I can clarify anything.

[barrysloate]

About 5-6 years ago, a family consigned a large group of T206's to me that belonged to their father. It was an original intact collection, with several hundred Sovereigns in it. And also included was a Plank series 350. Does that shed any light on this?

[tedzan]

Barry

Thanks for bringing up this original SOVEREIGN collection (including the Plank card).

I won this large SOVEREIGN lot in your auction (Nov 2006).
Here is the description of the cards......

262 SOVEREIGN cards (including Green Cobb, 2-Johnson's, Speaker, CYoung, plus 34 HOFers)........
NOTE:
112 cards were SOVEREIGN 150
109 cards were SOVEREIGN 350
041 cards were SOVEREIGN 460

18 SOVEREIGN HOFers

Red Cobb SOVEREIGN 350

Cobb (bat on shoulder) SOVEREIGN 150

Cobb (bat off shoulder) SOVEREIGN 350

CYoung (portrait) SOVEREIGN 350

Plank......SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory 30


Sure was a great boost in helping me complete my all-SOVEREIGN set.

Thanks again, Barry


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Happy you won them Ted, and thanks for the series breakdown. Back then, it didn't even cross my mind to list the different series in my catalog descriptions. So I've never really known what was in there.

[Runscott]

Ted, to me the following breakdown would support Tim's theory. If a collector worked this hard on a Sovereign set, and went to the trouble of locating a Plank, you would think that they could have found a Sovereign if one existed.

Originally Posted by tedzan

112 cards were SOVEREIGN 150
109 cards were SOVEREIGN 350
041 cards were SOVEREIGN 460

Plank......SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory 30