Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[tedzan]

T206 Eddie Plank

It's been 2-3 years since I posted my "Plank theory" thread......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t+order&page=6

I haven't been able to discover any new evidence to support my contention that the T206 Plank was yanked due to a conflict with the American Caramel Co.

But, I have discovered that Plank was very much anti-tobacco in any form. And so was his Mgr., Connie Mack. Plank was a low-keyed guy and most likely did
not receive the "fanfare" that Wagner got for having their cards pulled from circulation. Plank's complaint was most likely resolved by a Cease & Desist Order
to ATC.
If so, then a mystery surrounds this situation, since ALC issued Plank again when they printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 cards. But not too many,
as they had to yank Plank cards a 2nd time.


T206 Mike "Doc" Powers

The Powers card has been traditionally classified as a "150-Only" subject. I question this, since this card is found with a SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649
(overprint) back. This tells us that Powers was designed to be a 150/350 subject. Unfortunately, Mike Powers died from complications of an injury that he suf-
fered at Shibe Park on Opening Day of the 1909 season. This was especially tragic for Eddie Plank since Powers had been his preferred catcher for many years.

Needless to say, ALC did not print any 350 series card of Powers. However, two T206 surveys (18,000+ cards) indicate that Powers' PIEDMONT 150 card and
the SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649 (overprint) card were both Double-Printed on their respective sheets.


TED Z

a.k.a......T-Rex TEDE

[Ronnie73]

Very intresting research and theorys. I am still hopefull that an uncut sheet will turn up one day.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Thanks for all that valuable information Ted. The question remains....where are the uncut sheets. Almost as intrigueing are the uncovered hoards and collections yet unseen that might contain some answers. You sure are one if not the top gun with 206s . In my meager hunt i will keep you informed of any new info i might uncover.
Many years ago I think i remember Mr. Frank Nagy having uncut strips or panels of them, but i could be wrong. I was dazzled at the time of his page after page after page of 52T mantles. aloha dave

[ScottFandango]

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

Thanks Scott....I appreciate your kind words.

Pardon me for correcting your number; but, there are only 8 known Joe Doyle error cards. And, as you said....this card is indeed the toughest in the T206 set.
Will it ever sell for more than an equivalently graded Wagner. I don't think so. The Wagner card has been "hyped" up for too many years and will stay on top.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

Nice thread T-Rex.....Doyle will always be tougher but no way does he get to Wagner's cult status and value, imho...

[steve B]

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Lesser points about the technical end of things.

I can't find any way to agree with the sheets being hung up to dry. In a proofing dept yes, but not in production. There just isn't the time. A rough guess based on the possible 370 million Scott Reader proposed as a high production number, 144 cards to a sheet and 5 seconds a sheet to do the hanging equals roughly 89 weeks of labor per color. The way the presses stack sheets in the outfeed area provides a bit of air between sheets and that's all that is required.

The process was more than 6 colors, at least for some printings. The ones not usually recognized are in Italics.
Yellow, black, brown, blue, light blue, dark green, red, pink, Gray/tan
I'm positive about blue/light blue being two individual passes, as well as red/pink. I'm less certain about gray/tan. That one could be part of the brown pass which sometimes is more gray.
Here's the upper right corner of Batch showing blue/light blue clearly.

Steve B

[mkdltn]

There is a color called Buff as well-its the flesh tone.

[Ronnie73]

I agree with Steve that the sheets were not hung. Old presses used air suction to pickup and move the sheets and also to dry them. The inks that were used, would dry quickly. The ink is so thick that a putty knife would have to be used to spread it evenly in the tray that contacts the ink rollers. During use, thinners would have to be added to the ink tray because the ink would dry into one big stickey chunk. If anyone has ever used bondo for autobody, the ink is thicker than that.

[glchen]

Slightly off topic, but most people have said that the Gretzky Wagner is trimmed. I suppose this would mean that it was trimmed from a "jumbo" Wagner rather than sheet cut since uncut sheets don't exist?

And speaking of the "jumbo" cards, would this mean that these were on the top or bottom row of the sheet or just miscut?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Steve B

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[steve B]

Thanks Ted

1 I guess it's just an error on the spreadsheet. Good to know, now I just have to figure out how to remove the EP blocks.


2 I'm coming to think that the Magie and Magee should be considered as individual cards, Magie a 150 only and Magee a 150/350. I makes sense that if the error was in an early sheet and replaced they would have had to redo the brown artwork with the correct spelling and laydown an entirely new plate with the corrected version later, late enough that it ended up in the 150/350 group.

3) My thoughts change constantly on Plank as I learn more about that one card. considering your answer clarifies some of what I'd been thinking but didn't state well first time around.

I thought Plank was on an early 150/350 sheet rather than a 150 only sheet, but that seems wrong now finding out that the only Piedmont 150 ones are hand cut.
The Philadelphia area and other than philadelphia being treated differently at factory 649 doesn't directly affect Plank of course, but probably does affect Powers.
But the other factories would have used the same sheets, so if for instance Plank was removed after printing a small batch of SC 150 factory 30 and Powers added in extra quantity that might explain the Plank being so tough.

My thought on the 350 Plank - And now that I know there's only one that bit seems more likely- is that they were either using some of the sheets with the pulled cards as the make ready sheets and one got into the stack of production cards. It happens sometimes.
So I guess it could technically be considered a wrongback T206.

I'm not sure about the factory discarding particular cards. It could easily be done at the cutting stage but it's a bit labor intensive. I'd also expect a stack of one of the withdrawn cards to have turned up. It's a lot easier for a worker to stuff a handful of a card he's throwing away into a pocket than it is for them to bring home an entire sheet. Not to mention how attractive American Lithos trash must have been to the local kids.
Stopping production and simply not printing them would have been far easier.

Johns Point about the advertisements showing Wagner only coming out later in the summer of 09 seems to throw a wrench into both our theories. I just don't know enough about typical magazine lead times and publishing dates of that era. I'll have to do a bit of thinking on the timeline and some looking at my old magazines to see what I can find.

Steve B

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted,

There are (2) Piedmont Wagners that I know of both I think most would agree are trimmed or hand cut although one does reside in it’s wonderful PSA 8 holder. This card (PSA 8) is also the cornerstone of the grading industry yet the sheet mate Plank gets the AUTH years later too funny but I’m getting off point here LOL.

My point is taking Sovereign out of the mix, even taking Hindu out of the mix and focusing solely on Piedmont the ATC’s anchor brand as you say. Then answer this…..
Why can I get all the original 150 subjects with Piedmont 150 (not to mention Sovereign & Hindu) non hand cut such as the (2) lonely sole Wagners? Same goes for Plank 150’s of which there are (3) lonely hand cut cards one missingcolor too boot.





If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also.

John

1......Again, you agree with me regarding the PIEDMONT Wagner and Plank cards were "sheet-mates". We are making progress.

And yes, it is quite paradoxical that the Gretzky Wagner was graded as a PSA 8 card in the 1990's. While, in recent years, the Charlie Conlon Plank was graded as
an AUTHENTIC card by PSA. Although both these cards originated from the same source.

2......First, make no mistake, in the big picture....T206's with PIEDMONT backs outnumber T206's with all the SWEET CAPORAL backs by a factor of approx. 4 to 1.
This factor takes into account all cards of these two major brands that were tallied in two independent T206 surveys (18,000+ randomly sampled cards). You can
sample 100,000 - T206's and this ratio will not change that much.

With respect to the Wagner & Plank cards, it is obvious to anyone that the only brand of these two subjects that got into cigarette packs is the SWEET CAPORAL
brand. Why their PIEDMONT counterparts never got into cigarette packs remains a mystery, given the predominance of the PIEDMONT cards.

Now, consider this....if Wagner & Plank were NOT in this first press run; but, were printed subsequent to it (circa Summer/Fall of 1909) these two guys would also
have HINDU and SOVEREIGN backs....as the other 10 subjects in this initial press run have.

Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner
to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set.

That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.


TED Z

[Runscott]

edited: you've got your hands full. I'll send you an email