Cards still being outed on Blowout -- PSA 9 Monte Irvin in the recent ML

Lorewalker · #1 09-18-2023, 06:20 PM

2 of the examples were graded very early on. 1 of them I have no idea when the cert was used. Those are the first I have seen, not that I have looked for them but if an experienced card doctor recolored it, then it reasons that generally that print flaw results in a downgrade.

And in case we continue this I want to apologize from the bottom of my heart if I upset you in anything I post.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 09-18-2023, 06:45 PM

If it was a T206 it would be some highly prized "freak" and there would be 107 threads about it.

steve B · #3 09-18-2023, 07:12 PM

It's not really a print flaw, which I consider to be flaws from the press or handling.

It's from a mark on the negative used to make the plate. It would be on about half or 1/3 of the 54 mays produced. A genuine difference in that plate position, which should be treated as a variation even if it's not major enough to catalog or recognize. (and there are plenty that are recognized that are far more trivial)

Snowman · #4 09-18-2023, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not really a print flaw, which I consider to be flaws from the press or handling.

It's from a mark on the negative used to make the plate. It would be on about half or 1/3 of the 54 mays produced. A genuine difference in that plate position, which should be treated as a variation even if it's not major enough to catalog or recognize. (and there are plenty that are recognized that are far more trivial)

My opinion is that a flaw on the print plate that causes a blemish this bad, and which is not present on the other half (or more) of the cards produced, definitely makes this a print flaw. It's like the giant fisheye on ~half of the Dr. J RCs. The copies without the flaws should be graded higher and should be considered significantly more valuable than those with the flaws.

G1911 · #5 09-18-2023, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

2 of the examples were graded very early on. 1 of them I have no idea when the cert was used. Those are the first I have seen, not that I have looked for them but if an experienced card doctor recolored it, then it reasons that generally that print flaw results in a downgrade.

And in case we continue this I want to apologize from the bottom of my heart if I upset you in anything I post.

I found 3 graded over a 7.5 in 20 seconds and saw 6 total qualifying slabs. Makes me strongly suspect this is not "misinformation" but that PSA does not treat this particular variant differently from so many other print differences that it completely ignores. I don't see evidence for the contrary.

I'm still not interested in the personal game you want to play with me. That's all you.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 09-18-2023, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I found 3 graded over a 7.5 in 20 seconds and saw 6 total qualifying slabs. Makes me strongly suspect this is not "misinformation" but that PSA does not treat this particular variant differently from so many other print differences that it completely ignores. I don't see evidence for the contrary.

I'm still not interested in the personal game you want to play with me. That's all you.

I have no knowledge of this variant, but if that is so, why would Gary recolor it, and how else do we explain the jump of 1.5 grades?

G1911 · #7 09-18-2023, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no knowledge of this variant, but if that is so, why would Gary recolor it, and how else do we explain the jump of 1.5 grades?

The green is recolored on back or trimmed to make it look nicer. Check the Blowout post. I think it much more likely that the changes to the border damage to reduce them creates the grade gap rather than a well known masking variant that one can extremely easily and with no effort find several high slabbed examples of.

Would love to see any evidence what I said was "misinformation".

Snowman · #8 09-19-2023, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

The green is recolored on back or trimmed to make it look nicer. Check the Blowout post. I think it much more likely that the changes to the border damage to reduce them creates the grade gap rather than a well known masking variant that one can extremely easily and with no effort find several high slabbed examples of.

Would love to see any evidence what I said was "misinformation".

I see no evidence of this claim. This is what I was refuting from the beginning. I see nothing on the back that couldn't be achieved through just humidity/moisture and your finger.

Also, the expected variance for minor blemishes to appear and/or disappear from one scan to the next, let alone from one scanner to the next, is *much* wider than many people realize. I have thousands of duplicate scans of cards taken from different scanners and/or different settings at different times of the same cards that I could post and people would swear they were recolored or damaged, yet nothing was done to them.

Also, some blemishes simply disappear when a card is soaked in water. And contrary to what many claim/wish to be true, this practice is still allowed.

This reminds me of the 52 Mantle that started all these BODA threads a few years back. Nearly everyone on Blowout, page after page after page, were launching their disdain over the "trimmed" 52 Mantle. Each one pointing out which edges had so clearly been cut up. Yet, the card itself had not been trimmed at all. Not even by the width of a human hair. The card had simply been soaked in water and seemingly no one was capable of making this observation (I think there was eventually one guy who pointed this out on page 8 or so, but he was quickly shat upon, per the obligatory Blowhard code of conduct).

G1911 · #9 09-19-2023, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I see no evidence of this claim. This is what I was refuting from the beginning. I see nothing on the back that couldn't be achieved through just humidity/moisture and your finger.

Also, the expected variance for minor blemishes to appear and/or disappear from one scan to the next, let alone from one scanner to the next, is *much* wider than many people realize. I have thousands of duplicate scans of cards taken from different scanners and/or different settings at different times of the same cards that I could post and people would swear they were recolored or damaged, yet nothing was done to them.

Also, some blemishes simply disappear when a card is soaked in water. And contrary to what many claim/wish to be true, this practice is still allowed.

This reminds me of the 52 Mantle that started all these BODA threads a few years back. Nearly everyone on Blowout, page after page after page, were launching their disdain over the "trimmed" 52 Mantle. Each one pointing out which edges had so clearly been cut up. Yet, the card itself had not been trimmed at all. Not even by the width of a human hair. The card had simply been soaked in water and seemingly no one was capable of making this observation (I think there was eventually one guy who pointed this out on page 8 or so, but he was quickly shat upon, per the obligatory Blowhard code of conduct).

I don't care about your card doctor simp schtick. Gary Moser used moisture and his finger to achieve the changes outside the armband. Fine.

Lorewalker · #10 09-19-2023, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I found 3 graded over a 7.5 in 20 seconds and saw 6 total qualifying slabs. Makes me strongly suspect this is not "misinformation" but that PSA does not treat this particular variant differently from so many other print differences that it completely ignores. I don't see evidence for the contrary.

I'm still not interested in the personal game you want to play with me. That's all you.

You might not see evidence to the contrary as to your theory but that does not at all mean your theory is at all accurate. It merely means you are not able to see another explanation.

PSA is known for being inconsistent. Within the last 5 years I submitted a very high grade Mays which came back a 7. I reviewed it and it came back with a post it note with an arrow pointing to the print anomaly.

That one of the most prolific card doctors in the hobby knew to remove it in an effort to get a 1.5 grade bump suggests that he, who you will have to admit has far more experience submitting than you do, knew leaving it there would not allow him to get a grade bump.

Snowman · #11 09-19-2023, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

You might not see evidence to the contrary as to your theory but that does not at all mean your theory is at all accurate. It merely means you are not able to see another explanation.

PSA is known for being inconsistent. Within the last 5 years I submitted a very high grade Mays which came back a 7. I reviewed it and it came back with a post it note with an arrow pointing to the print anomaly.

That one of the most prolific card doctors in the hobby knew to remove it in an effort to get a 1.5 grade bump suggests that he, who you will have to admit has far more experience submitting than you do, knew leaving it there would not allow him to get a grade bump.

My experiences align with this take as well. I think in order to find one graded higher than a 7 with the armband, it would either have to have been graded in the early days of PSA or the grader would have had to miss it.

Johnny630 · #12 09-19-2023, 05:38 AM

We all have opinions on this subject at hand. I respect each one of them, can we some how move forward? The horse has been beaten on this board for many years now, nothing has changed, the horse has been so beat it's now being used in beyond meat burgers. Please respectfully let's move on.

MikeGarcia · #13 09-19-2023, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

We all have opinions on this subject at hand. I respect each one of them, can we some how move forward? The horse has been beaten on this board for many years now, nothing has changed, the horse has been so beat it's now being used in beyond meat burgers. Please respectfully let's move on.

..To bring us back to Pre-War Baseball Cards , I respectfully suggest we change to
: " SHOW US YOUR FATS FOTHERGILL CARDS ! "

.

Johnny630 · #14 09-19-2023, 07:56 AM

Many might hate on this but chew on this thought....all these guys that do this crap and drove up the prices....and I'm lumping in the investors who don't care what a card looks like as long as it's in a 9 holder have made all your vg ex and crappier cards go up in value as well. So can we quit the bitching to this extreme level. It's not as extreme as your all making it seem, the sky is NOT falling. This post will be all forgotten by the time the next major auction comes out regardless of what BOA claims maybe altered. The big money investors don't care. Raulis your collection is beautiful and your Willie Mays 9's will always have value. You could sell these cards today with full disclosure and and you would still get a record price for your high grade PSA 9 willie mays cards.

G1911 · #15 09-19-2023, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

You might not see evidence to the contrary as to your theory but that does not at all mean your theory is at all accurate. It merely means you are not able to see another explanation.

PSA is known for being inconsistent. Within the last 5 years I submitted a very high grade Mays which came back a 7. I reviewed it and it came back with a post it note with an arrow pointing to the print anomaly.

That one of the most prolific card doctors in the hobby knew to remove it in an effort to get a 1.5 grade bump suggests that he, who you will have to admit has far more experience submitting than you do, knew leaving it there would not allow him to get a grade bump.

That an action is done is not evidence that action is necessary. Though I am happy to learn PSA is now using a post it note system to explain why cards got certain grades. I didn�t know that. Explaining why they do what they do is good.

We�ve gone from �misinformation� to �a different explanation�. Looking at the slabs, and of numerous other 50�s Topps cards, print variants from which sheet slot the card was in do not seem to disqualify high grades. This seems the more reasonable evidence for me to use, the evidence of what PSA has actually done, rather than to assume that any action done is a necessary action done and skipping the other work performed by Moser�s *finger and moisture*. Misinformation is factually false and inaccurate information usually with intent to deceive, not an opinion from the physical evidence that one just disagrees with or does not like.

I will certainly admit that Moser has infinitely more experience submitting to PSA. As a collector of cardboard instead of a criminal fraudster, I don�t have as much need for their services

Lorewalker · #16 09-19-2023, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

That an action is done is not evidence that action is necessary. Though I am happy to learn PSA is now using a post it note system to explain why cards got certain grades. I didnt know that. Explaining why they do what they do is good.

Make no mistake I am not complimenting PSA. I had to pay for the review. Now they just take your money and no post it note.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Weve gone from misinformation to a different explanation. Looking at the slabs, and of numerous other 50s Topps cards, print variants from which sheet slot the card was in do not seem to disqualify high grades. This seems the more reasonable evidence for me to use, the evidence of what PSA has actually done, rather than to assume that any action done is a necessary action done and skipping the other work performed by Mosers *finger and moisture*. Misinformation is factually false and inaccurate information usually with intent to deceive, not an opinion from the physical evidence that one just disagrees with or does not like.

If you reread my post it said I had not ever seen a Mays higher than a 7 with the print flaw. Had I looked, as you did, I would have found them.

In that same post I was replying to both what you wrote as well as what snowman had written and this thread had misinformation. I never said that either of you had an intent to deceive. YIKES. Bit of a stretch there. Not everything should be this combative. Relax.

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