Cards still being outed on Blowout -- PSA 9 Monte Irvin in the recent ML

[D. Bergin]

LOL, I’m having a hard time getting 3’s and 4’s on seemingly very well preserved cards. How the hell are the grading companies still handing out 9’s on 53 Topps, without being suspicious of it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

LOL, I’m having a hard time getting 3’s and 4’s on seemingly very well preserved cards. How the hell are the grading companies still handing out 9’s on 53 Topps, without being suspicious of it?

Once more, with feeling. All submitters are equal. Some submitters are more equal than others.

[Snapolit1]

Let’s all say it loud and with feeling …..

Cards*that*are*70, or 80, or 100 years old*will*not*naturally*exist*in*pristine*condition *

[Snowman]

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

The irony is so rich that PSA supposedly was started to put a stop to card doctoring.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

Again, this is happening right now. PSA employees are even referring customers to Kurt's Card Care to fix flaws on cards before grading. Heritage Auctions has a guy who performs significant restoration/conservation work to raw cards prior to submitting to PSA/SGC. I know this first hand, for a fact. Dick Towle used to claim that he cleaned cards for every single major auction house. I believe him.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

This is already happening. Kurt's Card Care does a live stream every Wed night on Instagram where he fixes various flaws on cards from vintage to modern to Pokemon. He's very open and honest about everything he does to improve/restore a card's condition.

I've also talked about the fact that I clean cards myself. If I had the time or the desire to be a content creator, I'd have zero qualms about sharing exactly what I do publicly. I don't consider what I do or what Kurt does to be altering cards. Neither of us trims, recolors, or rebuilds paper stock or anything like that. Everything I do is allowed by every grading company. I've never once had a card rejected because of something I did to it.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is already happening. Kurt's Card Care does a live stream every Wed night on Instagram where he fixes various flaws on cards from vintage to modern to Pokemon. He's very open and honest about everything he does to improve/restore a card's condition.

I've also talked about the fact that I clean cards myself. If I had the time or the desire to be a content creator, I'd have zero qualms about sharing exactly what I do publicly. I don't consider what I do or what Kurt does to be altering cards. Neither of us trims, recolors, or rebuilds paper stock or anything like that. Everything I do is allowed by every grading company. I've never once had a card rejected because of something I did to it.

Pulling this out probably amounts to a non-sequitur at this point, but it caught my attention because I don't think I've ever seen KCC discussed on N54 before.

I would agree with you that what he does (at least on vintage) stops short of true card doctoring. If soaking a T206 is not a sin, then neither is using moisture / humidity to lift dents out of cards or to perk up pressed-down corners from screw cases. In the right set of circumstances in a musty attic or basement, the same thing could happen naturally. I know that his "spray" has drawn criticism too, but whatever it's ingredients - it's a quick drying formula that leaves nothing on the surface. I ordered a small bottle just to play with it, and had moderate success lessening the appearance of (not totally removing) light wrinkles and creases on postwar vintage on some test cards in my own PC. As I'm not setting out to do this for a living or even make it part of my hobby, (and his recommended practices if you do it on a lot of cards can be quite time consuming) I kind of quit after that.

Kurt does also have a "polish" for shiny ultramodern cards that seems to get out light scratches and imperfections. His videos are interesting to watch to say the least - and even though the polish to me seems to be a bit more in the vein of doctoring, I don't think he's ever had anything rejected by PSA or SGC. He's done everything from modern 1/1's to '52 Mantles it seems with good results.

This is interesting to me just because of the upfront, no secrets nature of it and the way Kurt runs his YouTube channel. Given recent events and indeed the original subject of this thread - it doesn't seem like he will run out of business anytime soon.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

100 percent that the big money doesn’t care. Just another example of the power of grading card companies.
These blowout posts are useful, but I agree, nobody cares.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

100 percent that the big money doesn’t care. Just another example of the power of grading card companies.
These blowout posts are useful, but I agree, nobody cares.

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

I say no one cares sometimes for effect, or because I'm so disgusted, but the truth is a lot of people still do. And that's why none of these asshats who facilitate the card doctors' sales EVER disclose alterations. If nobody truly cared, why not just disclose?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

Val, they might say the care, but I believe the card and the grade supersedes that initial feeling.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

LOL, I’m having a hard time getting 3’s and 4’s on seemingly very well preserved cards. How the hell are the grading companies still handing out 9’s on 53 Topps, without being suspicious of it?

THAT's the real IRONY

There giving them to somebody, though we're not in on the GAG