Cards still being outed on Blowout -- PSA 9 Monte Irvin in the recent ML

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I found 3 graded over a 7.5 in 20 seconds and saw 6 total qualifying slabs. Makes me strongly suspect this is not "misinformation" but that PSA does not treat this particular variant differently from so many other print differences that it completely ignores. I don't see evidence for the contrary.

I'm still not interested in the personal game you want to play with me. That's all you.

You might not see evidence to the contrary as to your theory but that does not at all mean your theory is at all accurate. It merely means you are not able to see another explanation.

PSA is known for being inconsistent. Within the last 5 years I submitted a very high grade Mays which came back a 7. I reviewed it and it came back with a post it note with an arrow pointing to the print anomaly.

That one of the most prolific card doctors in the hobby knew to remove it in an effort to get a 1.5 grade bump suggests that he, who you will have to admit has far more experience submitting than you do, knew leaving it there would not allow him to get a grade bump.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

You might not see evidence to the contrary as to your theory but that does not at all mean your theory is at all accurate. It merely means you are not able to see another explanation.

PSA is known for being inconsistent. Within the last 5 years I submitted a very high grade Mays which came back a 7. I reviewed it and it came back with a post it note with an arrow pointing to the print anomaly.

That one of the most prolific card doctors in the hobby knew to remove it in an effort to get a 1.5 grade bump suggests that he, who you will have to admit has far more experience submitting than you do, knew leaving it there would not allow him to get a grade bump.

My experiences align with this take as well. I think in order to find one graded higher than a 7 with the armband, it would either have to have been graded in the early days of PSA or the grader would have had to miss it.

[Johnny630]

We all have opinions on this subject at hand. I respect each one of them, can we some how move forward? The horse has been beaten on this board for many years now, nothing has changed, the horse has been so beat it's now being used in beyond meat burgers. Please respectfully let's move on.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

We all have opinions on this subject at hand. I respect each one of them, can we some how move forward? The horse has been beaten on this board for many years now, nothing has changed, the horse has been so beat it's now being used in beyond meat burgers. Please respectfully let's move on.

..To bring us back to Pre-War Baseball Cards , I respectfully suggest we change to
: " SHOW US YOUR FATS FOTHERGILL CARDS ! "




.

[Johnny630]

Many might hate on this but chew on this thought....all these guys that do this crap and drove up the prices....and I'm lumping in the investors who don't care what a card looks like as long as it's in a 9 holder have made all your vg ex and crappier cards go up in value as well. So can we quit the bitching to this extreme level. It's not as extreme as your all making it seem, the sky is NOT falling. This post will be all forgotten by the time the next major auction comes out regardless of what BOA claims maybe altered. The big money investors don't care. Raulis your collection is beautiful and your Willie Mays 9's will always have value. You could sell these cards today with full disclosure and and you would still get a record price for your high grade PSA 9 willie mays cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Many might hate on this but chew on this thought....all these guys that do this crap and drove up the prices....and I'm lumping in the investors who don't care what a card looks like as long as it's in a 9 holder have made all your vg ex and crappier cards go up in value as well. So can we quit the bitching to this extreme level. It's not as extreme as your all making it seem, the sky is NOT falling. This post will be all forgotten by the time the next major auction comes out regardless of what BOA claims maybe altered. The big money investors don't care. Raulis your collection is beautiful and will always have value. You could sell these cards today with full disclosure and and you would still get a record price for your high grade PSA 9 willie mays cards.

For me that is really the only sad part about the whole thing. Known altered cards selling for the price of the very rare unaltered versions.

Cards have been altered for profit since the beginning of collecting. It also doesn't matter if you collect high end or complete beaters they have ALL been altered by people taking advantage of the easily taken advantage of card buyers.

Besides collecting what I collect my favorite part of the hobby is watching the scammers. Forums are amazingly hilarious for this. We have more than one card doctor on here. When they get exposed if it is someone nobody likes they get attacked and sometimes kicked off. Other times the card doctor is a hobby icon and the guy that bought the altered card gets attacked for calling out the card doctor. Now that is always funny reading.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

For me that is really the only sad part about the whole thing. Known altered cards selling for the price of unknown yet still altered versions.

I fixed your post

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Raulus your collection is beautiful and your Willie Mays 9's will always have value. You could sell these cards today with full disclosure and and you would still get a record price for your high grade PSA 9 willie mays cards.

Appreciate your kind words, Johnny.

Had a rough night last night - didn't sleep much. The whole situation is just rather aggravating. A couple of days ago, this was one of the crown jewels in my collection. Today, I don't even want to look at it.

I realize that some think that it's still worth every penny that it was before, but I'm not so sure. I certainly wouldn't want to buy it knowing it had been altered, and I suspect that the only people who would want it are those who don't notice the disclosure, and buy it thinking that it's legit. Or they buy it hoping to hoodwink a future buyer by not disclosing it, which would not be cool.

While I might personally sell it with a disclosure, at some point a future seller is likely to drop the disclosure, and some poor new owner would get blindsided like I just was. And I don't want to inflict that on anyone else.

Going back to your point about value, while I hope I don't lose my shirt, my whole motive in collecting is because my collection brings me a little more happiness into my life, not because they're worth a small fortune. But now that one of my pieces has been identified as modified, it makes me wonder how many others are similarly situated. Kind of makes me sick just thinking about some worthless card doctor doing his thing to my stuff. So at the moment, the whole endeavor is definitely a lot less fun.

And it also makes me a whole lot more gunshy about going out and buying additional high grade pieces. I spent $6.5k on this one, which is a lot of bread. Up until yesterday it was probably worth low 5 figures. Probably a lot less today. But I've had some $100k pieces in my sights, and now I'm not so sure that makes any sense if I'm taking a gamble on whether they might be worthless doctor jobs.

It's one thing to read about cards that have been outed and understand that it's a theoretical possibility and someone else's problem. It's a whole different ballgame when one of your pieces is on the list.

Starting to come around to Peter's way of thinking...

[Exhibitman]

Wait a minute. Perhaps the grading skeptics are right. Perhaps I’ve been wrong to blindly follow the traditions and superstitions of PSA registry geeks. Maybe we collectors should test these card grades analytically, through observation and developing our own expertise, a “scientific method”. Maybe this scientific method could be replace reliance on others whose skills and motives might not align with ours. Perhaps I could lead the way to a new age, an age of rebirth, a Renaissance of the Hobby!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Appreciate your kind words, Johnny.

Had a rough night last night - didn't sleep much. The whole situation is just rather aggravating. A couple of days ago, this was one of the crown jewels in my collection. Today, I don't even want to look at it.

I realize that some think that it's still worth every penny that it was before, but I'm not so sure. I certainly wouldn't want to buy it knowing it had been altered, and I suspect that the only people who would want it are those who don't notice the disclosure, and buy it thinking that it's legit. Or they buy it hoping to hoodwink a future buyer by not disclosing it, which would not be cool.

While I might personally sell it with a disclosure, at some point a future seller is likely to drop the disclosure, and some poor new owner would get blindsided like I just was. And I don't want to inflict that on anyone else.

Going back to your point about value, while I hope I don't lose my shirt, my whole motive in collecting is because my collection brings me a little more happiness into my life, not because they're worth a small fortune. But now that one of my pieces has been identified as modified, it makes me wonder how many others are similarly situated. Kind of makes me sick just thinking about some worthless card doctor doing his thing to my stuff. So at the moment, the whole endeavor is definitely a lot less fun.

And it also makes me a whole lot more gunshy about going out and buying additional high grade pieces. I spent $6.5k on this one, which is a lot of bread. Up until yesterday it was probably worth low 5 figures. Probably a lot less today. But I've had some $100k pieces in might sights, and now I'm not so sure that makes any sense if I'm taking a gamble on whether they might be worthless doctor jobs.

It's one thing to read about cards that have been outed and understand that it's a theoretical possibility and someone else's problem. It's a whole different ballgame when one of your pieces is on the list.

Starting to come around to Peter's way of thinking...

Nicolo -- i am saying this candidly and not to upset you, but if you have been buying this type of high grade material from the same and similar auction houses, or from anyone really because cards get moved along, the odds are pretty good that this is not your only altered card. Altered high grade cards are prevalent in the hobby, some of the superstar doctors have been at this for decades. Blowout is great but as someone mentioned they probably have outed a very tiny fraction of the altered cards out there.
The philosophical question for you is, can you live with what you don't know, or is that likelihood enough to ruin things for you even if nobody has specifically outed the card. As I've said it's a question of tolerance and only you can make that judgment.

[Leon]

That sucks and I would probably feel the same way.

One solution, don't buy high grade vintage cards. Sure, lower grade one's get hacked too, but human nature (greed), means the more money the more likely of fraud, imo.

The card below isn't trimmed and I sleep well at night.

Originally Posted by raulus

Appreciate your kind words, Johnny.

Had a rough night last night - didn't sleep much. The whole situation is just rather aggravating. A couple of days ago, this was one of the crown jewels in my collection. Today, I don't even want to look at it.

I realize that some think that it's still worth every penny that it was before, but I'm not so sure. I certainly wouldn't want to buy it knowing it had been altered, and I suspect that the only people who would want it are those who don't notice the disclosure, and buy it thinking that it's legit. Or they buy it hoping to hoodwink a future buyer by not disclosing it, which would not be cool.

While I might personally sell it with a disclosure, at some point a future seller is likely to drop the disclosure, and some poor new owner would get blindsided like I just was. And I don't want to inflict that on anyone else.

Going back to your point about value, while I hope I don't lose my shirt, my whole motive in collecting is because my collection brings me a little more happiness into my life, not because they're worth a small fortune. But now that one of my pieces has been identified as modified, it makes me wonder how many others are similarly situated. Kind of makes me sick just thinking about some worthless card doctor doing his thing to my stuff. So at the moment, the whole endeavor is definitely a lot less fun.

And it also makes me a whole lot more gunshy about going out and buying additional high grade pieces. I spent $6.5k on this one, which is a lot of bread. Up until yesterday it was probably worth low 5 figures. Probably a lot less today. But I've had some $100k pieces in might sights, and now I'm not so sure that makes any sense if I'm taking a gamble on whether they might be worthless doctor jobs.

It's one thing to read about cards that have been outed and understand that it's a theoretical possibility and someone else's problem. It's a whole different ballgame when one of your pieces is on the list.

Starting to come around to Peter's way of thinking...

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

.

And it also makes me a whole lot more gunshy about going out and buying additional high grade pieces. I spent $6.5k on this one, which is a lot of bread. Up until yesterday it was probably worth low 5 figures. Probably a lot less today. But I've had some $100k pieces in might sights, and now I'm not so sure that makes any sense if I'm taking a gamble on whether they might be worthless doctor jobs.

I would argue that your card hasn't actually lost any value. Perhaps it has lost value in your eyes, or in the eyes of a very small minority of collectors, but the card's true value is dictated by what the market thinks it's worth, not you. And the market has clearly shrugged at the trimming and alteration scandals, as did the FBI.

If you sell this at auction to someone else and tether a disclosure to it, you may appease your moral compass, but from an economics perspective, all you've done is given someone else the opportunity for arbitrage, because it is an absolute certainty that someone (and likely the very next owner) will just resell it without disclosure. In fact, the disclosure itself nearly ensures that the next owner would be someone looking to profit from the opportunity because they would simply just outbid anyone who was afraid or put off by the disclosure. The card, and it's value, will persist unless it is destroyed. And if the card were sent to PSA, they would likely not honor their grade guarantee. They would say, "nope, looks good!" just like they always go.

At the end of the day, selling with a disclosure attached accomplishes nothing. If you truly want to do the "right thing", then you need to either destroy the card, or crack it out and send it back to PSA raw with a note attached that says, "this card was recolored" and then eat the loss. But this model is unsustainable. The vast majority of high grade vintage cards have been tampered with in some way. You'd be removing a single grain of sand from the beach.

Coming to terms with the fact that the entire high grade vintage market (and even a sizeable percentage of both the lower grade vintage and the modern market) has been f*d with is something that we either just accept or we live in denial about, or are simply ignorant of altogether. How we reach proceed with that knowledge is up to us individually. It has certainly helped to shap my purchasing decisions. I almost never buy a key vintage card graded above a 6, and I look for eye appeal. Yet I still end up with altered cards regularly. If I like the card regardless, I keep it. If I don't, I just resell it. And I don't attach my opinions to the listing. If I think it's altered, I don't care. Because if I did, I might as well give up on this hobby because the number of altered cards out there is endless. I'm not going to take a loss after loss into perpetuity to ease my conscience and effectively just give someone else free money.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

You might not see evidence to the contrary as to your theory but that does not at all mean your theory is at all accurate. It merely means you are not able to see another explanation.

PSA is known for being inconsistent. Within the last 5 years I submitted a very high grade Mays which came back a 7. I reviewed it and it came back with a post it note with an arrow pointing to the print anomaly.

That one of the most prolific card doctors in the hobby knew to remove it in an effort to get a 1.5 grade bump suggests that he, who you will have to admit has far more experience submitting than you do, knew leaving it there would not allow him to get a grade bump.

That an action is done is not evidence that action is necessary. Though I am happy to learn PSA is now using a post it note system to explain why cards got certain grades. I didn’t know that. Explaining why they do what they do is good.

We’ve gone from “misinformation” to “a different explanation”. Looking at the slabs, and of numerous other 50’s Topps cards, print variants from which sheet slot the card was in do not seem to disqualify high grades. This seems the more reasonable evidence for me to use, the evidence of what PSA has actually done, rather than to assume that any action done is a necessary action done and skipping the other work performed by Moser’s *finger and moisture*. Misinformation is factually false and inaccurate information usually with intent to deceive, not an opinion from the physical evidence that one just disagrees with or does not like.

I will certainly admit that Moser has infinitely more experience submitting to PSA. As a collector of cardboard instead of a criminal fraudster, I don’t have as much need for their services

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

That an action is done is not evidence that action is necessary. Though I am happy to learn PSA is now using a post it note system to explain why cards got certain grades. I didnÂ’t know that. Explaining why they do what they do is good.

Make no mistake I am not complimenting PSA. I had to pay for the review. Now they just take your money and no post it note.

Originally Posted by G1911

We’ve gone from “misinformation” to “a different explanation”. Looking at the slabs, and of numerous other 50’s Topps cards, print variants from which sheet slot the card was in do not seem to disqualify high grades. This seems the more reasonable evidence for me to use, the evidence of what PSA has actually done, rather than to assume that any action done is a necessary action done and skipping the other work performed by Moser’s *finger and moisture*. Misinformation is factually false and inaccurate information usually with intent to deceive, not an opinion from the physical evidence that one just disagrees with or does not like.

If you reread my post it said I had not ever seen a Mays higher than a 7 with the print flaw. Had I looked, as you did, I would have found them.

In that same post I was replying to both what you wrote as well as what snowman had written and this thread had misinformation. I never said that either of you had an intent to deceive. YIKES. Bit of a stretch there. Not everything should be this combative. Relax.