Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If Bonds, Clemens and Canseco had been more likeable people, you wonder if the whole perception would be different. See example of Big Papi.

I think being likable helps...that's why Pettite gets some HOF love and some others don't.

On Ortiz...I just don't put "leaked positive for something on an anonymous test before there was real testing" in the same category as "positive test after when testing became a thing".

Plus, of note...all the "good" part of Ortiz's career came AFTER testing was put in place.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I think being likable helps...that's why Pettite gets some HOF love and some others don't.

On Ortiz...I just don't put "leaked positive for something on an anonymous test before there was real testing" in the same category as "positive test after when testing became a thing".

Plus, of note...all the "good" part of Ortiz's career came AFTER testing was put in place.

Look at his HR totals up to age 26.

https://sports.cbslocal.com/2016/05/...eroid-red-sox/

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at his HR totals up to age 26.

https://sports.cbslocal.com/2016/05/...eroid-red-sox/

Right, and if steroids were something you took and you became good at baseball your entire career, it'd be concerning. But since they don't work that way, I see it as "the good part of his career came when testing was in place, and he never tested positive for anything".

I mean, I know they tested "randomly", but you know guys like Ortiz and the other HR guys got tested more than the 160 pound utility infielders.

Now Manny...don't get me started on that sad story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Right, and if steroids were something you took and you became good at baseball your entire career, it'd be concerning. But since they don't work that way, I see it as "the good part of his career came when testing was in place, and he never tested positive for anything".

I mean, I know they tested "randomly", but you know guys like Ortiz and the other HR guys got tested more than the 160 pound utility infielders.

Now Manny...don't get me started on that sad story.

3 percent of his career offensive output through age 26. Doesn't look good.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

3 percent of his career offensive output through age 26. Doesn't look good.

I see that...but are we to assume he started using steroids and just never got caught?

I wish whatever NY writer leaked that he was on the list had the decency to let us know what he tested positive for.

[Ricky]

Big Papi looks the same today as he did when he played, unlike say McGwire, who looks like he shrunk.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

On Ortiz...I just don't put "leaked positive for something on an anonymous test before there was real testing" in the same category as "positive test after when testing became a thing".

Neither Bonds nor Clemens ever failed a test administered by MLB.

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Neither Bonds nor Clemens ever failed a test administered by MLB.

But Bonds’ head grew two hat sizes….

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Neither Bonds nor Clemens ever failed a test administered by MLB.

That's true...but there's some pretty good public evidence that they used, including what, when, and how.

But maybe the point should be just that we simply do not know who did what and when, and how much it affected their careers.

Did guys like Raffy and Manny only use late in their careers, or for many years? Does it matter? And let's not forget, when they finally started testing, more pitchers tested positive than hitters. What an era....maybe we just need to stop playing "morality police" and just elect the best players of that era.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

That's true...but there's some pretty good public evidence that they used, including what, when, and how.

But maybe the point should be just that we simply do not know who did what and when, and how much it affected their careers.

Did guys like Raffy and Manny only use late in their careers, or for many years? Does it matter? And let's not forget, when they finally started testing, more pitchers tested positive than hitters. What an era....maybe we just need to stop playing "morality police" and just elect the best players of that era.

I'm not sure it holds up to analysis, but I would still keep out Sosa and Palmeiro. I think my gut tells me those guys were just OK players without cheating whereas Bonds and Clemens and possibly McGwire were HOF caliber anyhow. Hard to know what to make of guys like Ortiz who I really like but strongly suspect, and strongly suspect he wasn't that great without. Manny, just no clue.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not sure it holds up to analysis, but I would still keep out Sosa and Palmeiro. I think my gut tells me those guys were just OK players without cheating whereas Bonds and Clemens and possibly McGwire were HOF caliber anyhow. Hard to know what to make of guys like Ortiz who I really like but strongly suspect, and strongly suspect he wasn't that great without. Manny, just no clue.

Amazing how quickly everyone "forgot" about Palmeiro. He was on crappy Baltimore and Texas teams but he had probably the second smoothest left handed swing (behind only Griffey, Jr.) of all time. Maybe you're right about him being just "okay" without the 'roids, but I don't think so.

It's hard to argue with 3,000+ hits, 550+ HRs and 1,800+ RBIs. Oh, and did you know that he walked more than he struck out for his career? A career .371 OBP ain't too shabby.

You know how many players are on the exclusive 3k hit and 500 HR club? Only 6. Aaron, Mays, E. Murray, ARod, Pujols, and Palmeiro. That's rarified air there, my friends.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Amazing how quickly everyone "forgot" about Palmeiro. He was on crappy Baltimore and Texas teams but he had probably the second smoothest left handed swing (behind only Griffey, Jr.) of all time. Maybe you're right about him being just "okay" without the 'roids, but I don't think so.

It's hard to argue with 3,000+ hits, 550+ HRs and 1,800+ RBIs. Oh, and did you know that he walked more than he struck out for his career? A career .371 OBP ain't too shabby.

You know how many players are on the exclusive 3k hit and 500 HR club? Only 6. Aaron, Mays, E. Murray, ARod, Pujols, and Palmeiro. That's rarified air there, my friends.

I can't argue with his stats and yeah he could swing the bat gorgeously. Maybe it was just his attitude once the scandal broke, dunno.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't argue with his stats and yeah he could swing the bat gorgeously. Maybe it was just his attitude once the scandal broke, dunno.

"I HAVE NEVER USED STEROIDS. PERIOD. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT ANY CLEARER THAN THAT. NEVER"

- RAFAEL PALMEIRO


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[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

That's true...but there's some pretty good public evidence that they used, including what, when, and how.

But maybe the point should be just that we simply do not know who did what and when, and how much it affected their careers.

This is true. My list of suspected users is a lot longer than most. I'm in the Ken Caminiti & Jose Canseco camp that says a big percentage was using.

[JollyElm]

Jeff frickin' Kent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on now!!!!!!!!!!!

Pardon my outrage, but...
How the hell is the all-time leader in RBIs and HRs for a second baseman NOT a first ballot HOFer??????????????????? He was a run scoring monster at a position that's not noted for knocking guys in!!! He had 1,500 RBIs as a second baseman!!! He won an MVP!!! And he's going to drop off the ballot? Why, because the ridiculous sportswriters don't like him?? Boo f_cking hoo!!!!!! What a joke!!!

And save me the stupidity of advanced theoretical stats to pretend he doesn't belong. We all watched him play and know what a stud he was. On any all-time greats baseball team, he would be playing second base.

Oh, and Dave Parker.

[Econteachert205]

Jesse Tannehill’s career stats deserve a serious look.

[TexasLeaguer]

Wes Ferrell.
6 time 20 game winner and the best hitting pitcher of all-time by a wide margin.