Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I like Grich a lot, but also prefer Kent and Utley over him for the Hall. I would put Whitaker on a par with Grich. I prefer a smaller HOF, but would not mind if all four of them eventually got in. Some of the recent inductees would bug me more than all 4 of those second baggers getting in.

I think it comes down to offense vs. defense, peak vs longevity, with a touch of era/recency bias. That being said, looking at Utley and Kent’s raw numbers, they do feel more like HOFers. I honestly think all four belong.

My borderline personal 2B case is Pedroia. Borderline WAR total, but pretty much done at 33 due to injury. Strong rate stats for the position, ROY, MVP, WS wins, great defense, and a fun “gritty underdog gamer” vibe.

[Kutcher55]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I think it comes down to offense vs. defense, peak vs longevity, with a touch of era/recency bias. That being said, looking at Utley and Kent’s raw numbers, they do feel more like HOFers. I honestly think all four belong.

My borderline personal 2B case is Pedroia. Borderline WAR total, but pretty much done at 33 due to injury. Strong rate stats for the position, ROY, MVP, WS wins, great defense, and a fun “gritty underdog gamer” vibe.

Pedroia needed a couple of more years. If that dirtball Machado hadn't Ulf Samuelson'd him, he would have been a HOFer.

[molenick]

Here's another "team" for your consideration. These are the (non-steroid/HGH) players at each position who got the highest percentage of votes in a given year but who are not in the Hall (the number is their single highest %). This was based on looking at roughly the top 100 players at each position and clicking on the ones I thought were good candidates for the list, so I may have missed someone. Since Baseball Reference does not show the recent Veteran's Committee voting, these totals are not included. My understanding is that, among others, Bill Dahlen came close one year. If I can find a list of all those ballots I will update the team.

I found the recent VC results and have added them below. Only one position was changed but some players did get a higher % from the VC.

Dick Allen would be ahead at 1b or 3b depending on what you consider him. He had more games at 1b but had more WAR at 3b (at least that's how I interpret Baseball Reference ranking him under 3b).

C Elston Howard 20.7
1b Gil Hodges 63.4
2b Jeff Kent 32.4
ss Omar Vizquel 52.6 (Dahlen 62.5 VC)
3b Scott Rolen 52.9
lf Minnie Minoso 21.1 (56.3 VC)
cf Andruw Jones 33.9
rf Tony Oliva 47.3 (68.8 VC)
sp Curt Schilling 71.1
rp Billy Wagner 46.4
1b/3b Dick Allen 68.8 VC

The only player on both of my lists is Scott Rolen. He does have a good combination of "advanced" stats and traditional stats (over 300 HRs, five 100+ RBI seasons) and was a 7-time All-Star and 8-time Gold Glove winner. The ballot will be less crowded soon (Schilling, Bonds, and Clemens only have one year of eligibility left) so I'm thinking he will get in one day.

If you consider the VC voting, Dahlen is also on both lists.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Pedroia needed a couple of more years. If that dirtball Machado hadn't Ulf Samuelson'd him, he would have been a HOFer.

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 34 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Even in 08 when he got the mvp, it was controversial (.326 /17hr/83 rbi). Morneau got robbed that season & Rodriguez had 62 saves that season which was more deserving.

His 51.6 war is impressive but there are 45 position players with a WAR better than Pedroia’s 51.6 who are not in the Hall call. 7 of them are 2nd baseman. Grich, Whitaker, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Cano & Kinsler.

Watch the video, Machado's cleat pops up from hitting the bag, barely touches Pedroia who is in a bad defensive fielding position. Taking a throw from from SS behind 2b instead of in front of it is little league stuff. Machado was in his base path which is his right. Aggressive within your right and dirty are too different things.

Want to see an intentionally dirty slide, watch Utley obliterate Miguel Tejada 2 feet from the bag in 2015.


Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[RayBShotz]

I didn't study the whole thread and don't know if Albert Belle was mentioned.
During his 9-10 year run he was as dangerous and productive a hitter as anyone in MLB.
Career cut short by debilitating injury and wasn't exactly beloved by the Press but Albert could rake.
Take a look at his stats from the strike season. Can you just imagine where that season would have finished amongst the others from the era.
RayB

[SD]

Originally Posted by RayBShotz

I didn't study the whole thread and don't know if Albert Belle was mentioned.

During his 9-10 year run he was as dangerous and productive a hitter as anyone in MLB.

Career cut short by debilitating injury and wasn't exactly beloved by the Press but Albert could rake.

Take a look at his stats from the strike season. Can you just imagine where that season would have finished amongst the others from the era.

RayB

94 the last of the Kevin Mitchell years. Him, Griffey, Belle, Thomas and Bagwell where hitting HRs and high BA.

Lofton stealing bases any time he wanted and getting hits like no ones business.

But no one was as hot as Tony and his .394 average. K'd only 19 times in 475 PA. That's 2 weeks for Javy Baez.

Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by SD

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 37 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Well…no. Pedroia is 37 NOW.

[Kutcher55]

Originally Posted by SD

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 37 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Even in 08 when he got the mvp, it was controversial (.326 /17hr/83 rbi). Morneau got robbed that season & Rodriguez had 62 saves that season which was more deserving.

His 51.6 war is impressive but there are 45 position players with a WAR better than Pedroia’s 51.6 who are not in the Hall call. 7 of them are 2nd baseman. Grich, Whitaker, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Cano & Kinsler.

Watch the video, Machado's cleat pops up from hitting the bag, barely touches Pedroia who is in a bad defensive fielding position. Taking a throw from from SS behind 2b instead of in front of it is little league stuff. Machado was in his base path which is his right. Aggressive within your right and dirty are too different things.

Want to see an intentionally dirty slide, watch Utley obliterate Miguel Tejada 2 feet from the bag in 2015.


Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

These are solid points and appreciate the perspective. He would have been an interesting case if he had been able to carry on for a few more years. Regarding Machado's slide, certainly debatable but I still feel it was dirty especially in consideration of his pattern of behavior throughout his career, including a very dirty moment in the 2018 WS.

[Tabe]

I just watched the Machado slide and it's basically nothing. Pedroia's positioning is fine, Machado's leg pops up and he spikes Pedroia. Doesn't even really make strong contact with Pedroia's leg. I'm seeing online descriptions saying that Pedroia's knee "buckled" and so on - nope. He got spiked, his leg popped up, and then he went down. If it truly ended his career, it's an amazingly innocuous play for that to happen on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbAYcXPhIUE

[Mike D.]

Pedroia did have existing knee issues, which I’m sure didn’t help. For what it’s worth, Pedroia didn’t seem to think the slide was dirty.

Maybe it’s my Red Sox tinted glasses, but if I squint, I see an injury shortened career that may have had enough peak without the benefit of longevity. Think Kirby Puckett (he had a shorter career but similar WAR).

[howard38]

Originally Posted by SD

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 37 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Even in 08 when he got the mvp, it was controversial (.326 /17hr/83 rbi). Morneau got robbed that season & Rodriguez had 62 saves that season which was more deserving.

His 51.6 war is impressive but there are 45 position players with a WAR better than Pedroia’s 51.6 who are not in the Hall call. 7 of them are 2nd baseman. Grich, Whitaker, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Cano & Kinsler.

Watch the video, Machado's cleat pops up from hitting the bag, barely touches Pedroia who is in a bad defensive fielding position. Taking a throw from from SS behind 2b instead of in front of it is little league stuff. Machado was in his base path which is his right. Aggressive within your right and dirty are too different things.

Want to see an intentionally dirty slide, watch Utley obliterate Miguel Tejada 2 feet from the bag in 2015.


Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

Pedroia is 37 now.

[SD]

Originally Posted by howard38

Pedroia is 37 now.

Yes, thank you, corrected above.

Kinsler, Utley, Rollins, Pedroia are all similar players with good arguments. Pedroia being the best of the bunch in my opinion.

It's very unlikely Pedroia would have played another 5 years. If he did could he have put up Sandberg type of numbers? Probably not. I feel like thats the bottom line of what it would have taken to get in.

That being said, was Pedroia better then Bobby Doerr who is in? I have heard this argument from Boston fans in the past. I'd say no where close.

Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by SD

That being said, was Pedroia better then Bobby Doerr who is in? I have heard this argument from Boston fans in the past. I'd say no where close.

It’s an interesting comparison.

By WAR, they’re close…with a fraction of one WAR separating them (BBR version).

Doerr had about 1,250 more PA. Both were effectively done by age 33, with Doerr getting an earlier start.

Doerr had a .288/.362/.461 line with a .823 OPS and 115 OPS+

Pedroia had a 299/.365/.439 line with an .805 OPS and 113 OPS+

So, I’d probably give Doerr and edge, but it’s not THAT far off.

[Mike D.]

Of note, WAR is a counting stat…so when I see Kinsler with 2.2 more WAR than Pedroia, but with 1,500 plus more plate appearances, that doesn’t scream “better” to me. A look at their raw numbers, rate stats, etc seems to back that up.

[egri]

Originally Posted by SD

That being said, was Pedroia better then Bobby Doerr who is in? I have heard this argument from Boston fans in the past. I'd say no where close.

I agree. While they both had injury-shortened careers, Doerr also lost a year and change due to the war. He was drafted in August 1944 and didn't return until 1946.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by egri

I agree. While they both had injury-shortened careers, Doerr also lost a year and change due to the war. He was drafted in August 1944 and didn't return until 1946.

The fact that Doerr debuted at 19 and was a major league regular is super impressive.