Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

That's true...but there's some pretty good public evidence that they used, including what, when, and how.

But maybe the point should be just that we simply do not know who did what and when, and how much it affected their careers.

Did guys like Raffy and Manny only use late in their careers, or for many years? Does it matter? And let's not forget, when they finally started testing, more pitchers tested positive than hitters. What an era....maybe we just need to stop playing "morality police" and just elect the best players of that era.

I'm not sure it holds up to analysis, but I would still keep out Sosa and Palmeiro. I think my gut tells me those guys were just OK players without cheating whereas Bonds and Clemens and possibly McGwire were HOF caliber anyhow. Hard to know what to make of guys like Ortiz who I really like but strongly suspect, and strongly suspect he wasn't that great without. Manny, just no clue.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not sure it holds up to analysis, but I would still keep out Sosa and Palmeiro. I think my gut tells me those guys were just OK players without cheating whereas Bonds and Clemens and possibly McGwire were HOF caliber anyhow. Hard to know what to make of guys like Ortiz who I really like but strongly suspect, and strongly suspect he wasn't that great without. Manny, just no clue.

Amazing how quickly everyone "forgot" about Palmeiro. He was on crappy Baltimore and Texas teams but he had probably the second smoothest left handed swing (behind only Griffey, Jr.) of all time. Maybe you're right about him being just "okay" without the 'roids, but I don't think so.

It's hard to argue with 3,000+ hits, 550+ HRs and 1,800+ RBIs. Oh, and did you know that he walked more than he struck out for his career? A career .371 OBP ain't too shabby.

You know how many players are on the exclusive 3k hit and 500 HR club? Only 6. Aaron, Mays, E. Murray, ARod, Pujols, and Palmeiro. That's rarified air there, my friends.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Amazing how quickly everyone "forgot" about Palmeiro. He was on crappy Baltimore and Texas teams but he had probably the second smoothest left handed swing (behind only Griffey, Jr.) of all time. Maybe you're right about him being just "okay" without the 'roids, but I don't think so.

It's hard to argue with 3,000+ hits, 550+ HRs and 1,800+ RBIs. Oh, and did you know that he walked more than he struck out for his career? A career .371 OBP ain't too shabby.

You know how many players are on the exclusive 3k hit and 500 HR club? Only 6. Aaron, Mays, E. Murray, ARod, Pujols, and Palmeiro. That's rarified air there, my friends.

I can't argue with his stats and yeah he could swing the bat gorgeously. Maybe it was just his attitude once the scandal broke, dunno.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't argue with his stats and yeah he could swing the bat gorgeously. Maybe it was just his attitude once the scandal broke, dunno.

"I HAVE NEVER USED STEROIDS. PERIOD. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT ANY CLEARER THAN THAT. NEVER"

- RAFAEL PALMEIRO


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SD

"I HAVE NEVER USED STEROIDS. PERIOD. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT ANY CLEARER THAN THAT. NEVER"

- RAFAEL PALMEIRO


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I think he still claims his failed test was the result of Tejada injecting him with what Tejada told him was a B12 shot. On the other hand, Canseco was unequivocal about him using all along. On the other hand consider THAT source.

BTW didn't Sheffield have a similar excuse for HIS failed test, that Bonds had injected him and lied to him about what it was?

[SD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he still claims his failed test was the result of Tejada injecting him with what Tejada told him was a B12 shot. On the other hand, Canseco was unequivocal about him using all along. On the other hand consider THAT source.

Yeah him and Juan González where definitely clean.

Those early 90 Ranger teams where fun to watch.
Canseco ruined them.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SD

Yeah him and Juan González where definitely clean.

Those early 90 Ranger teams where fun to watch.
Canseco ruined them.

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Loved the batting stance of Gonzalez who I think modeled it after Franco with the bat cocked over the head. Saw him very early in his career in a Fenway day game. They announce him and I'm thinking who? Then he just crushes one over the Monster, and I'm thinking, well this kid got all of that one. Next time up, he does the exact same thing, and this time I'm thinking what a swing, he may be the real deal. And he was, until he wasn't. I guess he has only himself to blame for taking a bad path, but man what a waste.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by SD

Yeah him and Juan González where definitely clean.

Those early 90 Ranger teams where fun to watch.
Canseco ruined them.

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Hell yes they were! Ivan, Gonzo, Franco, Raffy, Will Clark, Rusty Greer (very underrated OFer)...then you get Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers and Kevin Brown as pitchers at various points...come on!

Raffy is 100% a HOFer by the numbers (Ive come full circle on PEDs and if roid guys are in and Selig is in then dont pick and choose between them...all or none)

Gonzo IMO is a HOFer but Im a Rangers fan so

PS: Honestly if I could bet money I would bet Cal Ripken Jr was a PED user (I think that's Thomas Boswell's mystery HOF player he has not IDed) and what we need to get past this is a HOFer that was a user...like say Ripken if he in fact did...to come out and admit it and that would end this HOF hang up...just a thought.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he still claims his failed test was the result of Tejada injecting him with what Tejada told him was a B12 shot. On the other hand, Canseco was unequivocal about him using all along. On the other hand consider THAT source.

Jose is a lot of things but I don't think he's been shown to be wrong about ANY of the guys he's accused of being steroid users.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Jose is a lot of things but I don't think he's been shown to be wrong about ANY of the guys he's accused of being steroid users.

https://forum.orioleshangout.com/for...y-on-steroids/

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