NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:42 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
But not Canseco's pharmacist.

How is surgically altering a pitching arm praised, while chemically altering muscle tissue is banned? What, really, is the difference when it comes to using modern medicine to gain a competitive advantage?
Has anyone ever questioned Koufax' regime of cortisone (steroid) injections?
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:44 AM
Mark17's Avatar
Mark17 Mark17 is offline
M@rk S@tterstr0m
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Has anyone ever questioned Koufax' regime of cortisone (steroid) injections?
It's a slippery slope, isn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:45 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
It's a slippery slope, isn't it?
I guess people would say John and Koufax underwent procedures to "cure" something wrong whereas Bonds et al were simply seeking to enhance performance but were healthy?
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:49 AM
Mark17's Avatar
Mark17 Mark17 is offline
M@rk S@tterstr0m
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I guess people would say John and Koufax underwent procedures to "cure" something wrong whereas Bonds et al were simply seeking to enhance performance but were healthy?
Maybe for Koufax, but when guys can throw harder after having Tommy John surgery, I don't think that point holds.

Bonds could say his substances "cured" his insufficient muscle mass and relative lack of power.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:58 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
Maybe for Koufax, but when guys can throw harder after having Tommy John surgery, I don't think that point holds.

Bonds could say his substances "cured" his insufficient muscle mass and relative lack of power.
People always defend and distinguish amphetamines, but if they didn't improve performance, why did guys use them?
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-06-2021, 08:13 AM
Mark17's Avatar
Mark17 Mark17 is offline
M@rk S@tterstr0m
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
People always defend and distinguish amphetamines, but if they didn't improve performance, why did guys use them?
Some people feel they need a cup of coffee to start the day. Chemically or psychologically, maybe it helps them get going.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-06-2021, 08:50 AM
HistoricNewspapers HistoricNewspapers is offline
Brian
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 187
Default

From 1975-1981 George Foster's averages per 162 games are:

.297 BA
38 HR
126 RBI
99 Runs scored
149 OPS+

Garvey's best 7 year run 1974-1980:
.311 BA
24 HR
106 RBI
88 Runs scored
130 OPS+

Cecil Cooper best 7 year run 1977-1983
.316 BA
26 HR
109 RBI
99 Runs Scored
137 OPS+

Kent Hrbek 1984-1990
.288
30
102
86
134 OPS+

Seems those arguments about Garvey being a run producer belong to someone else. Foster has him beat in old school measurements and sabermetric measurements during their peaks that happened at basically the exact same time. Cooper has him beat too.

Garvey's peak isn't that special and there are guys who are not in the HOF that have just as good or better peaks. Foster and HRbek are also both two time WS champions.


Dwight Evans is really the player from that era that has the best case to be inducted.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-06-2021, 08:51 AM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is online now
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,440
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
Some people feel they need a cup of coffee to start the day. Chemically or psychologically, maybe it helps them get going.
And what, after all, is psychology if not chemistry?

Last edited by darwinbulldog; 07-06-2021 at 08:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-06-2021, 05:16 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
Maybe for Koufax, but when guys can throw harder after having Tommy John surgery, I don't think that point holds.
A huge part of the increased velocity is that the arm is actually in better shape because of all the rehab the pitcher does. It's grueling rehab and the player ends up in much better shape (all over) if they do it correctly, hence added velocity.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-06-2021, 05:30 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Has anyone ever questioned Koufax' regime of cortisone (steroid) injections?
I forget if it was here or over on the PSA boards but someone made a post basically detailing that Koufax was a PED user by pretty much every definition of the word.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-06-2021, 05:43 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
I forget if it was here or over on the PSA boards but someone made a post basically detailing that Koufax was a PED user by pretty much every definition of the word.
If Bonds, Clemens and Canseco had been more likeable people, you wonder if the whole perception would be different. See example of Big Papi.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-06-2021, 06:06 PM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
If Bonds, Clemens and Canseco had been more likeable people, you wonder if the whole perception would be different. See example of Big Papi.
I think being likable helps...that's why Pettite gets some HOF love and some others don't.

On Ortiz...I just don't put "leaked positive for something on an anonymous test before there was real testing" in the same category as "positive test after when testing became a thing".

Plus, of note...all the "good" part of Ortiz's career came AFTER testing was put in place.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-06-2021, 06:14 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D. View Post
I think being likable helps...that's why Pettite gets some HOF love and some others don't.

On Ortiz...I just don't put "leaked positive for something on an anonymous test before there was real testing" in the same category as "positive test after when testing became a thing".

Plus, of note...all the "good" part of Ortiz's career came AFTER testing was put in place.
Look at his HR totals up to age 26.

https://sports.cbslocal.com/2016/05/...eroid-red-sox/
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-06-2021 at 06:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-06-2021, 06:56 PM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Look at his HR totals up to age 26.

https://sports.cbslocal.com/2016/05/...eroid-red-sox/
Right, and if steroids were something you took and you became good at baseball your entire career, it'd be concerning. But since they don't work that way, I see it as "the good part of his career came when testing was in place, and he never tested positive for anything".

I mean, I know they tested "randomly", but you know guys like Ortiz and the other HR guys got tested more than the 160 pound utility infielders.

Now Manny...don't get me started on that sad story.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:27 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D. View Post
Right, and if steroids were something you took and you became good at baseball your entire career, it'd be concerning. But since they don't work that way, I see it as "the good part of his career came when testing was in place, and he never tested positive for anything".

I mean, I know they tested "randomly", but you know guys like Ortiz and the other HR guys got tested more than the 160 pound utility infielders.

Now Manny...don't get me started on that sad story.
3 percent of his career offensive output through age 26. Doesn't look good.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:46 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D. View Post

On Ortiz...I just don't put "leaked positive for something on an anonymous test before there was real testing" in the same category as "positive test after when testing became a thing".
Neither Bonds nor Clemens ever failed a test administered by MLB.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:51 PM
Ricky Ricky is offline
Rich
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 361
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Neither Bonds nor Clemens ever failed a test administered by MLB.
But Bonds’ head grew two hat sizes….
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:57 PM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Neither Bonds nor Clemens ever failed a test administered by MLB.
That's true...but there's some pretty good public evidence that they used, including what, when, and how.

But maybe the point should be just that we simply do not know who did what and when, and how much it affected their careers.

Did guys like Raffy and Manny only use late in their careers, or for many years? Does it matter? And let's not forget, when they finally started testing, more pitchers tested positive than hitters. What an era....maybe we just need to stop playing "morality police" and just elect the best players of that era.

Last edited by Mike D.; 07-06-2021 at 07:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-06-2021, 08:41 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D. View Post
That's true...but there's some pretty good public evidence that they used, including what, when, and how.

But maybe the point should be just that we simply do not know who did what and when, and how much it affected their careers.

Did guys like Raffy and Manny only use late in their careers, or for many years? Does it matter? And let's not forget, when they finally started testing, more pitchers tested positive than hitters. What an era....maybe we just need to stop playing "morality police" and just elect the best players of that era.
I'm not sure it holds up to analysis, but I would still keep out Sosa and Palmeiro. I think my gut tells me those guys were just OK players without cheating whereas Bonds and Clemens and possibly McGwire were HOF caliber anyhow. Hard to know what to make of guys like Ortiz who I really like but strongly suspect, and strongly suspect he wasn't that great without. Manny, just no clue.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-06-2021 at 08:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-06-2021, 11:37 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D. View Post
That's true...but there's some pretty good public evidence that they used, including what, when, and how.

But maybe the point should be just that we simply do not know who did what and when, and how much it affected their careers.
This is true. My list of suspected users is a lot longer than most. I'm in the Ken Caminiti & Jose Canseco camp that says a big percentage was using.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-06-2021, 06:35 PM
molenick's Avatar
molenick molenick is online now
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 823
Default

There are two (at least two) ways to look at this. I don’t really like the "this [bad selection] is in and this guy was better so he should be in" approach. I call this the "Baines and Haines Problem". There are hundreds of pitchers better than Jesse Haines that are not in the Hall (at least according to Baseball Reference rankings), but that doesn't mean they all should be in. I like the "Magee Method" where there is a player you can make a reasonable argument is the best at his position not in the Hall.

I am not smart enough to determine what "best" means so I will just present for your consideration the highest ranked player at each position (as per Baseball Reference) eligible for the Hall who is not tainted by either accusation or proof of steroid or HGH use. Pete Rose and Joe Jackson are not eligible so they are not included below, nor are active players (since they are not eligible yet).

c Thurman Munson (Joe Mauer ranks higher but has not been retired for five years)
1b Todd Helton
2b Bobby Grich
ss Bill Dahlen
3b Scott Rolen
lf Sherry Magee
cf Kenny Lofton (Carlos Beltran ranks higher but has not been retired for five years)
rf Dwight Evans
sp Jim McCormick
rp Bobby Shantz

The last one was a surprise to me but Shantz pitched in 537 games and started 171, so I guess he qualifies as a relief pitcher. However, over 25% of his career WAR came from his MVP season as a starter. After him is Tom Gordon, who was also both a reliever and starter (890 games, 206 starts) but whose WAR was more evenly distributed. After him is Firpo Marberry, who I was surprised to see had about the same game splits as Shantz (551 games, 186 starts) and who I think is the best candidate of the three.
__________________
My avatar is a drawing of a 1958 Topps Hank Aaron by my daughter. If you are interested in one in a similar style based on the card of your choice, details can be found by searching threads with the title phrase Custom Baseball Card Artwork or by PMing me.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-06-2021, 06:42 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,557
Default

I have never understood how Grich gets so high up in those WAR/JAWS ratings. Here are his other Baseball Reference metrics.


Something does not add up for me.


Black Ink
Batting - 8 (355), AverageHOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (784), AverageHOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 42 (504), LikelyHOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 32 (305), AverageHOFer ≈ 50


And even more telling:
Similar Batters
1.Toby Harrah (908.6)
2.Brandon Phillips (898.2)
3.Jay Bell (894.8)
4.Bret Boone (892.6)
5.Jhonny Peralta (884.1)
6.Asdrubal Cabrera (883.7)
7.Chase Utley (882.6)
8.Sal Bando (879.9)
9.Ian Kinsler (876.1)
10.Travis Fryman (871.6
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-06-2021 at 06:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-07-2021, 01:57 PM
Jason19th Jason19th is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 855
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I have never understood how Grich gets so high up in those WAR/JAWS ratings. Here are his other Baseball Reference metrics.


Something does not add up for me.


Black Ink
Batting - 8 (355), AverageHOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (784), AverageHOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 42 (504), LikelyHOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 32 (305), AverageHOFer ≈ 50


And even more telling:
Similar Batters
1.Toby Harrah (908.6)
2.Brandon Phillips (898.2)
3.Jay Bell (894.8)
4.Bret Boone (892.6)
5.Jhonny Peralta (884.1)
6.Asdrubal Cabrera (883.7)
7.Chase Utley (882.6)
8.Sal Bando (879.9)
9.Ian Kinsler (876.1)
10.Travis Fryman (871.6

Two factors explain Grich’s war vs other metrics

1. 16.8 of his war is from defense

2. He was very consistent. Never had a bad year and never had a crazy good year. Therefore he was always valuable but didn’t lead the league in much
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-07-2021, 03:51 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason19th View Post
Two factors explain Grich’s war vs other metrics

1. 16.8 of his war is from defense

2. He was very consistent. Never had a bad year and never had a crazy good year. Therefore he was always valuable but didn’t lead the league in much
Also the fact that 2B was not exactly an offensive position during Grich's career. He had a lot of 13 homer, 50 RBI seasons that just don't look all that impressive.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-06-2021, 07:12 PM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by molenick View Post
The last one was a surprise to me but Shantz pitched in 537 games and started 171, so I guess he qualifies as a relief pitcher. However, over 25% of his career WAR came from his MVP season as a starter. After him is Tom Gordon, who was also both a reliever and starter (890 games, 206 starts) but whose WAR was more evenly distributed. After him is Firpo Marberry, who I was surprised to see had about the same game splits as Shantz (551 games, 186 starts) and who I think is the best candidate of the three.
Yeah, I wish BB-R wouldn't list relievers with a significant number of starts on the list...it really skews things. It also really shows just how amazing Mariano Rivera was, with only 10 career starts (in his rookie year, when he had a 5.51 ERA).

I think the next pure reliever to get elected is Billy Wagner. I think Joe Nathan may eventually get in, as well.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Baseball Hall of Fame "Shoebox Treasures" Exhibit sixpointone Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) 1 04-05-2019 03:21 PM
1977 Exhibits "Baseball's Great Hall of Fame" Bram99 Live Auctions - Only 2-3 open, per member, at once. 1 01-27-2019 09:39 PM
1970 article on "Card Collector's Hall of Fame" trdcrdkid Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 12 03-04-2016 02:12 PM
SOLD!!!! "HALL of FAME HEROES" COMPLETE 44 CARD SET! Ends Sun 12-8! GoldenAge50s Live Auctions - Only 2-3 open, per member, at once. 5 12-08-2013 08:24 PM
2013 Hall of Fame "Special" Induction 7/28...any Net54 members attending? orator1 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 21 07-28-2013 05:38 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:25 AM.


ebay GSB