OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's possible. And that's the great thing about baseball "what if " discussions.

I figured on a gradual dropoff to his final two years which I assumed were done clean.
A sharp dropoff would have maybe left him at the upper 600's ?

The big tripping point is his attitude. It cost him at least a year. clean with the same attitude and a quick dropoff? Maybe he doesn't stay around long enough for even 600.


Of course, while we're onto whatifs, If the Sox had ever signed Kingman we'd be wondering how none of these guys could hit 90 even with steroids.

And does anyone recall the Topps "cyber stats" cards from 94? They did projected stats based on some computer program and used them for an insert set. The computer had Barry at something like 73 HR.

Steve B

Longest home run I ever saw in person was Kingman at Fenway with the As. Canseco had just hit a rinky dink one to right and kingman steps up and hits it ten miles over the wall. In the paper the next day they said it paid its toll on the turnpike and was last seen heading west.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Longest home run I ever saw in person was Kingman at Fenway with the As. Canseco had just hit a rinky dink one to right and kingman steps up and hits it ten miles over the wall. In the paper the next day they said it paid its toll on the turnpike and was last seen heading west.

Love hearing about Mick's supposed 636 or so foot bomb. That's just unreal.

I heard of the Kingman shot, incredible

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Lets just please get back to this discussion, because I love hearing everyone's opinions and arguments, and that helps make this game great.

Go ahead and respond to the points I made.

And for the record I made nothing person, just pointed out D-3 college ball isn't a path to the pros. You on the other hand...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Love hearing about Mick's supposed 636 or so foot bomb. That's just unreal.

I heard of the Kingman shot, incredible

kingman had huge holes in his swing and most often would strike out or hit a pathetic grounder, but when the pitchers left one out over the plate, amazing things could happen

earlier in his career i happened to catch a game at wrigley and saw him hit one clean out of the stadium, in person it was really quite amazing to see

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Go ahead and respond to the points I made.

And for the record I made nothing person, just pointed out D-3 college ball isn't a path to the pros. You on the other hand...

How the heck was that not personal!? Lets see, you spent the time to google me, found out where I went to school, then quoted my saying, "D3 isn't a path to the pros." And then the, "you on the other hand..."

What are you trying to get at? Any level is a path, dont be blind by your arrogance. Heard of Toe Nash? Probably not because it doesn't seem like you know much about baseball, but google him. I reiterate, just cause mommy and daddy couldn't get the coach to not cut you, you don't need to try to personally attack someone. Grow up

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

kingman had huge holes in his swing and most often would strike out or hit a pathetic grounder, but when the pitchers left one out over the plate, amazing things could happen

earlier in his career i happened to catch a game at wrigley and saw him hit one clean out of the stadium, in person it was really quite amazing to see

That's amazing. He reminds me a little of Matt Stairs, all or nothing, but boy, when he got ahold of one...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

That's amazing. He reminds me a little of Matt Stairs, all or nothing, but boy, when he got ahold of one...

Only time I ever saw a ball leave the stadium was Marty Barrett of all people - hit one over the net in left field at Fenway. I guess if you lived in Boston you would see that a lot.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

How the heck was that not personal!? Lets see, you spent the time to google me, found out where I went to school, then quoted my saying, "D3 isn't a path to the pros." And then the, "you on the other hand..."

What are you trying to get at? Any level is a path, dont be blind by your arrogance. Heard of Toe Nash? Probably not because it doesn't seem like you know much about baseball, but google him. I reiterate, just cause mommy and daddy couldn't get the coach to not cut you, you don't need to try to personally attack someone. Grow up

Let's see, if someone on a message boards says they were on track to play pro ball it is natural to look into that. Don't be embarrassed by playing D-3 ball. Then again, don't pretend it is more than it is.

Your basing my knowledge on baseball on what exactly?

You can cut the crap out about mommy and daddy and getting the coach not to cut me out. That is nothing but talking out of your rear.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Let's see, if someone on a message boards says they were on track to play pro ball it is natural to look into that. Don't be embarrassed by playing D-3 ball. Then again, don't pretend it is more than it is.

Your basing my knowledge on baseball on what exactly?

You can cut the crap out about mommy and daddy and getting the coach not to cut me out. That is nothing but talking out of your rear.

Speak about talking out of your rear, you don't know what I did as a player. I'm not ashamed, I went to a tremendous school, but your arrogance still shows by saying D3 ball is nothing. I had offers, got hurt. Happens every year.

So what, I had a decent shot, it didn't work, don't need to knock on a guy that you don't know anything about to help your self esteem. You just fit in with the typical uneducated person, believe anything you read on the Internet.

Awwww is someone mad because I was right? You couldn't make a team, well that's unfortunate. Don't lay your personal problems in trying To attack others. Just classless, immature, and flat out embarrassing for yourself.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Only time I ever saw a ball leave the stadium was Marty Barrett of all people - hit one over the net in left field at Fenway. I guess if you lived in Boston you would see that a lot.

Yeah I'm from MN, so with the old dome never witnessed it. Did see a shot by Thome in right field that hit the top of the flag pole and went into the plaza, that was probably the closest. And I was at a game in the done when Thome was with the Indians, and we had huge pictures of our retired number players in center and right field. He hit two off of them, one off Pucketts the other Hrbeks. I was awestruck as a young kid

[packs]

I used to love watching Thome take batting practice at Yankee Stadium when he was on Cleveland. That guy is STRONG.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by packs

I used to love watching Thome take batting practice at Yankee Stadium when he was on Cleveland. That guy is STRONG.

Yeah he's an absolute beast, so is Prince Fielder. Probably one of the strongest in the games history

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Speak about talking out of your rear, you don't know what I did as a player. I'm not ashamed, I went to a tremendous school, but your arrogance still shows by saying D3 ball is nothing. I had offers, got hurt. Happens every year.

So what, I had a decent shot, it didn't work, don't need to knock on a guy that you don't know anything about to help your self esteem. You just fit in with the typical uneducated person, believe anything you read on the Internet.

Awwww is someone mad because I was right? You couldn't make a team, well that's unfortunate. Don't lay your personal problems in trying To attack others. Just classless, immature, and flat out embarrassing for yourself.

Nope, don't know what you did as a player. Never said I did. Couldn't care less either. Arrogance? I said D-3 ball is nothing to be ashamed of. You went to Bethel. I had to chuckle at the tremendous part.

I get it. I destroyed that facade you created for yourself. Sorry... not really. Apparently that is personal.

If I believed everything I read on the internet I wouldn't have found out the truth about your pro aspirations now would I?

Look, every insult you have thrown at my is completely reflected upon yourself in your own writing. And any one objectively reading this can see that. I promise you.

Now, how about getting back to your oh so loved baseball discussion. Or do you not yet feel vindicated? Or do you want to keep this up until we are both banned. Your call.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Nope, don't know what you did as a player. Never said I did. Couldn't care less either. Arrogance? I said D-3 ball is nothing to be ashamed of. You went to Bethel. I had to chuckle at the tremendous part.

I get it. I destroyed that facade you created for yourself. Sorry... not really. Apparently that is personal.

If I believed everything I read on the internet I wouldn't have found out the truth about your pro aspirations now would I?

Look, every insult you have thrown at my is completely reflected upon yourself in your own writing. And any one objectively reading this can see that. I promise you.

Now, how about getting back to your oh so loved baseball discussion. Or do you not yet feel vindicated? Or do you want to keep this up until we are both banned. Your call.

Again, you claim you don't known what I did as a player, yet you are still so damn adamant in claiming that I built up something false. Amazing how you say say no about someone's life that you know nothing of.

Yes, let me lie about potentially having a shot at a pro career on Net54, where I have no one to impress. Why not just say I did play pro ball, or something else. You're still an idiot, you think you know so damn much about my life. What, you think the scouts notes on every single kid they recruit on the Internet about private workouts. You are still clueless. You have no idea how the interworkings or intricacies of the background of baseball works, your ignorance clearly shows.

I can go all night. Why don't you see me in person and we can "chat" about it over a beer, lets see how that goes for you.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Again, you claim you don't known what I did as a player, yet you are still so damn adamant in claiming that I built up something false. Amazing how you say say no about someone's life that you know nothing of.

Yes, let me lie about potentially having a shot at a pro career on Net54, where I have no one to impress. Why not just say I did play pro ball, or something else. You're still an idiot, you think you know so damn much about my life. What, you think the scouts notes on every single kid they recruit on the Internet about private workouts. You are still clueless. You have no idea how the interworkings or intricacies of the background of baseball works, your ignorance clearly shows.

I can go all night. Why don't you see me in person and we can "chat" about it over a beer, lets see how that goes for you.

I know you went to Bethel University. That's all. Couldn't care less about anything else.

You tell me why you got so worked up about it being posted that you only reached D-3? This whole thing got started because of it.

Is that a threat?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

I know you went to Bethel University. That's all. Couldn't care less about anything else.

You tell me why you got so worked up about it being posted that you only reached D-3? This whole thing got started because of it.

Is that a threat?

The whole thing started by you trying to be a smart a$$. I never posted I played D3, you did, look back and read. Then you felt so inclined to,attack me from that point on. Sure seems like you care by making that post.

I don't know, is it...you don't like beer ?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I have accepted my fate in that God has a different game plan for me. You can choose whether to believe me or not, like I said, I have no reason to lie.

If you want to continue this, you have my email, we can talk about that in exchanges. No need to distract from the OP's original post, and I will apologize and say that I am sorry for this long, pointless sidebar

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

The whole thing started by you trying to be a smart a$$. I never posted I played D3, you did, look back and read. Then you felt so inclined to,attack me from that point on. Sure seems like you care by making that post.

I don't know, is it...you don't like beer ?

Right. You posted you were on the path of a pro career. I debunked that claim.

Never made a single attack. Go back and read the thread. Can't say the same for you however.

Well, since we don't seem to be hitting it off there is no chance in hell I would want to spend a minute in person with you. That "let's see how that goes for you" comment can certainly be viewed as such.

I am done with this train wreck. My apologies to all who wasted their time reading it.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Right. You posted you were on the path of a pro career. I debunked that claim.

Never made a single attack. Go back and read the thread. Can't say the same for you however.

Well, since we don't seem to be hitting it off there is no chance in hell I would want to spend a minute in person with you. That "let's see how that goes for you" comment can certainly be viewed as such.

I am done with this train wreck. My apologies to all who wasted their time reading it.

You never debunked it, how can you debunk something you have no facts to back it up. you can think that all you want, you're just a sorry sorry man who couldn't make it on a team, and are filled with regrets.

It was sure implied as an attack, go back and read it.

Hmmmm maybe it is maybe it isn't....

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sylbry

I am done with this train wreck. My apologies to all who wasted their time reading it.

Don't think so highly of your ability to create a train wreck - this one is more like a big wheels wreck.

I'm amazed at how important it is to some whether or not the 'rhoid boys get in the hall. We have no say in this - it's all up to the writers, and they could care less what we think. The HOF is a mess - it was a mess before steroids and it will be a mess regardless of whether or not Barry Bonds gets in. Politics and baseball just don't mix.

[HRBAKER]

Maybe you both should have tried out for the debate team.
Been to Bethel, I went To Union U.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm amazed at how important it is to some whether or not the 'rhoid boys get in the hall. We have no say in this - it's all up to the writers, and they could care less what we think. The HOF is a mess - it was a mess before steroids and it will be a mess regardless of whether or not Barry Bonds gets in. Politics and baseball just don't mix.

Well said, and spot on Scott. It's all diplomatic and the favorites get voted in...reminds me of the Gold Glove award...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Maybe you both should have tried out for the debate team.
Been to Bethel, I went To Union U.

Hana nice.

Union is a great school, haven't been their but heard campus is gorgeous

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

With all due respect, you must not know shit. Ruth did not have an excellent and complete all around game, you're arrogant for that assumption. To hit .342 he didn't need speed. As an earlier poster stated, the fields were deep. Anyone person could generalize Ruth was not fast, as evidenced by his steals and fielding, which you seem lacking to grasp. He had more triples than steals because of the deep fields. If a player hits at a .342 clip and gets on base nearly every other at bat, wouldn't you think they would run?

No Bonds was complete, 500-500. Unreal

The "arrogance" of my assumptions is based on conversations with any one of several knowledgeable people who saw Ruth play, one of whom was the sports writer Shirley Povich. So I have no idea from where your assumptions are drawn other than what any one person who is not fully informed can generalize about, with all due respect.

As to my original post, it was, shall we say, overly aggressive. Sorry for that. I'll just say that I feel you are mistaken as to the all around quality of The Babe's game.

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Love hearing about Mick's supposed 636 or so foot bomb. That's just unreal.

I heard of the Kingman shot, incredible

The longest home run hit to left field at Fenway was 501+ ft. by Manny Ramirez, a half foot shorter than Williams had hit to right many years earlier. (into the wind I might add)

Kingman's longest shot I believe was hit in 1976 at Wrigley during the 23-22 game with the Phils. It traveled over 570 feet! I'm sure the wind was blowing out that day
I don't believe Mantle ever hiy a ball 636 feet.

[christopher.herman]

Steriods. Give me a break. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa should have followed Babe Ruth's diet regimen of hot dogs, beer and underage girls. Controversy over.
C.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bosoxfan

The longest home run hit to left field at Fenway was 501+ ft. by Manny Ramirez, a half foot shorter than Williams had hit to right many years earlier. (into the wind I might add)

Kingman's longest shot I believe was hit in 1976 at Wrigley during the 23-22 game with the Phils. It traveled over 570 feet! I'm sure the wind was blowing out that day
I don't believe Mantle ever hiy a ball 636 feet.

That HR by Manny should have been called at way over 501. I'm convinced it was only called that short out of respect for Williams.

The longest I saw in person were some by Rice. Not as high, but they were out quicker than any I've seen.

The one I recall by Kingman was while he was with the Yankees at Fenway. Hit in the bank of lights on the second light tower in left Mannys was only in the lights of the first tower. The one by Kingman should be the longest at Fenway, although there are a few others that were impressive. Like the handful that have gone completely out to the right of the flagpole.

Steve B

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Don't think so highly of your ability to create a train wreck - this one is more like a big wheels wreck.

Funniest thing and best reading of this thread.

You other guys be cool. When anyone starts talking about other's personal lives, very much, it sort of creeps me out. I don't have a huge interest in this whole debate, just saying...being cool and let the personal stuff go., Thanks much....(no need to respond to this but if you so desire......go for it)

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

With all due respect, you must not know shit. Ruth did not have an excellent and complete all around game, you're arrogant for that assumption. To hit .342 he didn't need speed. As an earlier poster stated, the fields were deep. Anyone person could generalize Ruth was not fast, as evidenced by his steals and fielding, which you seem lacking to grasp. He had more triples than steals because of the deep fields. If a player hits at a .342 clip and gets on base nearly every other at bat, wouldn't you think they would run?

No Bonds was complete, 500-500. Unreal

You've entirely ignored the other points I made about why Ruth might not have run much.
Especially having Gehrig behind him. Why run and potentially take a run away from yourself?

The era he played wasn't a huge one for running. 1921 one of ruths better years for steals he stole 17 and the Yankees as a team stole 89, about average for that year. This year most AL teams were over 100.

If you are an excellent ballplayer you do know that steals are more about getting a good jump and a good read of the pitcher. There's only ever been a handful of guys where that may not have mattered- Henderson, cloeman, probably a couple more. Brock himself won't credit pure speed.

Steve B
For the record, I only ever made it to modified pitch softball. Probably from a lack of ability to see let alone hit even a lousy fastball. I run like a catcher- A softball catcher.....And I'm damn proud of my 1 career stolen base.
(Two triples too - hey I'm like Babe Ruth!)

[abrahamrudy]

I just can't stand how people have become so self-righteous about steroids, relying on the verdict in the court of public opinion to declare players guilty or innocent. Look, we ALL bear the cross of the steroid era. Nobody here can honestly say that in 1998 they thought Big Mac's popeye arms were real (and if you can, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'm looking to unload for a few t205s). Every one of us was glued to the TV that season, watching every on of his 70 and Sosa's 66. We knew or should have known that they were juicing. We ignored it, just as we had ignored it through the late 80s and the entire 90s, because the baseball highs were worth it- titanic home runs, larger-than-life players, skyrocketing attendance, etc... WE need to own up to the steroid era ourselves. WE need to own up to it because it was US, not Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds who sullied the game. They were just entertainers who gave us what we wanted to see. If WE as a fan base have decided steroids are bad (and I believe they are) then WE have a responsibility to make it right; not by lynching the players who did what we wanted them to do, but by acknowledging what we've done wrong: letting the end product justify everything. An exhibit in the Hall of Fame fully treating the steroid era would be a good start: talk not only about Bonds Clemens Conte and McNamee, but on how we were all involved; the intense media coverage that steroids generated, the home run race, etc.; and on the aftermath as well: Ken Caminiti's untimely death and dangerous abuse of steroids by teenage athletes. Just as gambling once plagued the game, steroids plagued the game, and we need to acknowledge that this problem extended far beyond just the few players who happened to be randomly tested in 2003 before anybody gave a hoot who was juicing.

How does this shake out for Clemens and Bonds? I think they should be in the Hall of Fame. There's no shot that people will forget the allegations that swirl around, especially if the Hall of Fame does the right thing and addresses the steroid era. But to pretend that the all time home run leader didn't exist just because he's been found guilty in a post-hoc trial at the court of public opinion is to do a great disservice to the Hall and to baseball. There is nothing to be gained from guessing which great players are or were on steroids. The evidence record is woefully spotty and almost all concentrated in 2003, as though steroids hadn't been in use for decades prior. Steroid era players should be in the Hall, ceteris paribus, and I think there's a good chance that they will be.

[EvilKing00]

I can see a Block Buster movie in the next 10 years comming out! or at least a made for TV movie, lol

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by abrahamrudy

I just can't stand how people have become so self-righteous about steroids, relying on the verdict in the court of public opinion to declare players guilty or innocent. Look, we ALL bear the cross of the steroid era. Nobody here can honestly say that in 1998 they thought Big Mac's popeye arms were real

Your looking at things through 'post-steroid' eyes.

I guess I for one would have bought your bridge, and I bear no crosses related to drugs and baseball.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wasn't McGwire's explanation at the time that he was on a supplement? I remember thinking it wasn't particularly credible, but I don't recall caring all that much either.

[packs]

I'll never understand the "we don't know" argument. It's like looking at brown rock painted purple and saying "well maybe it's always been purple."

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wasn't McGwire's explanation at the time that he was on a supplement? I remember thinking it wasn't particularly credible, but I don't recall caring all that much either.

Yes, you are correct. Here's a link to an article from around that time:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...re_supplement/

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wasn't McGwire's explanation at the time that he was on a supplement? I remember thinking it wasn't particularly credible, but I don't recall caring all that much either.

yea said he was on Endocrine

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wasn't McGwire's explanation at the time that he was on a supplement? I remember thinking it wasn't particularly credible, but I don't recall caring all that much either.

Not being into that sort of thing, I didn't ever look for the 'before' pics. I assumed he had just bulked up a bit over the off-season. But I must confess that I thought the same thing about Lenny Dykstra. Maybe it's naiveté, but I just wasn't tying my sport (baseball) to steroid use - it never crossed my mind.

[ullmandds]

Scott...me too...but in hindsight it was naivete on my part...esp when players like brady anderson hits 50 hr's...and Nomar garciopara returns from the offseason all bulked up preaching new training techniques.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Scott...me too...but in hindsight it was naivete on my part...esp when players like brady anderson hits 50 hr's...and Nomar garciopara returns from the offseason all bulked up preaching new training techniques.

When Dykstra came back all bulked up, I remember thinking "WTF?!?", but I figured he had just worked his ass off with the weights. I gotta admit, Sosa made me think something was up - he was just a skinny kid at Texas. But McGwire was a fairly big guy. When he got off the steroids he shrunk back down even further than what he was at Oakland.

Yeah, I was naive.

[ullmandds]

Its kinda similar to those early eighties bands like culture club and all the men wearing makeup and womens clothes..."it's just the style!?"

[howard38]

.

[esd10]

all i can say is cheating is cheating and they do not belong in the hof because who will ever know how many homeruns or strikeouts they would have had if they wouldnt have done the juice.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by esd10

all i can say is cheating is cheating and they do not belong in the hof because who will ever know how many homeruns or strikeouts they would have had if they wouldnt have done the juice.

Finally, a fresh viewpoint.

[ls7plus]

IMHO, they're all eventually coming in as the best of their era. I'd like to see it happen with an asterisk as to the known users, but come on now, really--how do you tell who's who??? According to the book written by the former Mets' clubhouse attendant, he supplied hundreds of players! But the baseball writers eventually will reach the consensus that they aren't going to throw out an entire era. It will simply be widely recognized that one simply can't compare pre PED stats with post PED era stats. There are always going to be difficulties in comparing players' performances from different eras in any event, based upon the different conditions under which the game was played.

Face it, as long as the money keeps gettig bigger and bigger, there are always going to be players willing to do whatever it takes to get at the pot of gold!

Best,

Larry

[Cy2009]

Cheating isn't just cheating. If that were the case, how did Gaylord Perry get into the Hall?