OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[71buc]

I am a weight lifter and have been or many years. Wherever there is weight lifting there are drugs. I never used steroids only because i could not afford them. I remember sitting in gyms talking about Incaviglia back when he came up pre-Canseco. I am not saying that Incaviglia was juicing. However, his arrival made it fairly obvious to those of us in that culture that serious weight lifting had arrived in baseball. We also knew that drugs were soon to follow just as night follows day. PEDs do not create ability they enhance it. Genetics cannot be improved upon. While on androgenics the journeyman becomes a steady player, the average player becomes a star, the superstar becomes a legend. I remember laughing when androstenedione was discovered in McGwire's locker. It is banned in other sports due to it being used as an masking agent. Athletes who used said indignantly, "I am not on steroids I'm on andro". In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance. My friend refused to believe me. Seven years later the Selena Roberts article came out in SI and I was the first person my friend, then employed by the scouting bureau, called. Unfortunately that whole generation of players is suspect. It doesn't make them less it makes them different. They are a product of their time. Just as Ruth was the product of his. Despite playing pre integration, night baseball, and coast to coast travel, Ruth would have succeeded in any generation. The numbers would not be as gaudy but they still would have been there because of genetics. However, I suspect that if he played in the steroid era he would have joined the PED party. Those of us who care about the HOF know that this generation's stats are inflated by PEDs...so what. Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's inclusion does not diminish the accomplishments of those already enshrined. What are we going to do deny an entire generation of players? If we do so then you might as well close the doors to the HOF because I will never go back. This issue really puts Hank Aaron's accomplishments in perspective. Those numbers are pre-steroid and post integration. I believe he is the greatest hitter of all time. Maddux's numbers are even more amazing considering his era. Thanks for indulging me while I pontificate.

[bcbgcbrcb]

There is no doubt that Bonds, before taking steroids, was a Hall of Famer. He would not have been classified as possibly the best ever, but almost certainly a first ballot selection.

Just like Rose & Jackson, before their poor decisions entered the picture, were no doubt Hall of Famers. Clemens likely as well but not quite as clear as Bonds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bonds absolutely was a HOFer before his alleged steroid use. Three MVPs, and the consensus best all around player in baseball for a decade.

[yanks12025]

I bet Bonds was on the juice for MOST of his career and not just the last couple years.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

[QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.

[yanks12025]

[QUOTE=HOF Auto Rookies;1056992][QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.[/QUOTE]

A-rod didn't use in 2007, he admitted to using in the years 2001-03 in 2007.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

[QUOTE=yanks12025;1056995]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

A-rod didn't use in 2007, he admitted to using in the years 2001-03 in 2007.

Sorry, you are correct, looked at the wrong time frames. That's when the article came out, disregard my prior message. But prior to those seasons, he had three consecutive 40 hr seasons, I don't know why he used. But basing it off his age I do not agree with, being just 25-26 at the time of the first usage.

[glynparson]

Played against a segregated non global opponent yes Bonds was the greatest left fielder of alltime, no doubt at all in my mind.

[glynparson]

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

So because your opinion must be right, what year did Bonds first start using steroids then???? So say if Bonds started taking steroids in 1990 in which he won his first MVP. So he'd then be a hall of famer/all-time great based on his first three years in the majors... Simple answer NO.

You can't say he would have been a hall of famer/all-time great pre-steroids, because we don't know WHEN Bonds started taking steroids.

[sylbry]

There is one very simple truth. Nearly 100 years after Ruth first took the field he is still being considered one of the greatest players who ever lived. And it is safe to say he will still be considered that 100 years from now.

With Bonds, as technology and science continues to progress Bonds will be an after thought.

Ruth's success was based strictly on raw ability. So much so HE CHANGED THE WAY THE GAME WAS PLAYED. Bonds' success was due in a very large part to progression in sports medicine and science... the best bats, the best balls, body armor, the best nutrition, the best medicine, the best training, and the best drugs.

Make no mistake about it, if MLB opens the door to freely allow players to do what Bonds was doing, Bonds won't look so great. Can you imagine a player with Mantle's natural ability having the advantages Bonds' had? For most of Bonds' career he wasn't even the best player in the league. That would be Griffey Jr. It wasn't until he started using that he because so feared.

And since we are pointing out difference in eras, ponder these two:

Ruth hit 54 homers in 1920. Ray Chapman died late in the 1920 season. MLB did not start using new balls until after. Ruth hit 54 homers while playing with beat up baseballs.

And do you think for a second Bonds would have gotten away with crowding the plate in the 1920's? Think he would have tried without his body armor?

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career...

Playing D-3 college baseball is not a path of a pro career.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Playing D-3 college baseball is not a path of a pro career.

Yes because I forgot how much you knew about my life. When you googled me, did you find anything about the scholarships I had that gotten taken away because I blew everything in my shoulder. Did it tell you about the scouts and the pro teams I worked out for?

Just shut the up and don't bring a personal matter into this fun and interesting debate, that is extremely classless and immature on your end. All because of a disagreement over someone's opinion.

You must not know shit about baseball, they find talent in all levels. Ever heard of Jordan Zimmermann? 2nd round pick of the Nats a few years ago. Guess where he came from. Yeah D3.

Just cause you were a terrible athlete and rode the pine, doesn't mean you just go and post about someone else because your daddy couldn't convince the coach to not cut you.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Yes because I forgot how much you knew about my life. When you googled me, did you find anything about the scholarships I had that gotten taken away because I blew everything in my shoulder. Did it tell you about the scouts and the pro teams I worked out for?

Just shut the up and don't bring a personal matter into this fun and interesting debate, that is extremely classless and immature on your end. All because of a disagreement over someone's opinion.

You must not know shit about baseball, they find talent in all levels. Ever heard of Jordan Zimmermann? 2nd round pick of the Nats a few years ago. Guess where he came from. Yeah D3.

Just cause you were a terrible athlete and rode the pine, doesn't mean you just go and post about someone else because your daddy couldn't convince the coach to not cut you.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Lets just please get back to this discussion, because I love hearing everyone's opinions and arguments, and that helps make this game great.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Lets just please get back to this discussion, because I love hearing everyone's opinions and arguments, and that helps make this game great.

Go ahead and respond to the points I made.

And for the record I made nothing person, just pointed out D-3 college ball isn't a path to the pros. You on the other hand...

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by 71buc

I am a weight lifter and have been or many years. Wherever there is weight lifting there are drugs. I never used steroids only because i could not afford them. I remember sitting in gyms talking about Incaviglia back when he came up pre-Canseco. I am not saying that Incaviglia was juicing. However, his arrival made it fairly obvious to those of us in that culture that serious weight lifting had arrived in baseball. We also knew that drugs were soon to follow just as night follows day. PEDs do not create ability they enhance it. Genetics cannot be improved upon. While on androgenics the journeyman becomes a steady player, the average player becomes a star, the superstar becomes a legend. I remember laughing when androstenedione was discovered in McGwire's locker. It is banned in other sports due to it being used as an masking agent. Athletes who used said indignantly, "I am not on steroids I'm on andro". In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance. My friend refused to believe me. Seven years later the Selena Roberts article came out in SI and I was the first person my friend, then employed by the scouting bureau, called. Unfortunately that whole generation of players is suspect. It doesn't make them less it makes them different. They are a product of their time. Just as Ruth was the product of his. Despite playing pre integration, night baseball, and coast to coast travel, Ruth would have succeeded in any generation. The numbers would not be as gaudy but they still would have been there because of genetics. However, I suspect that if he played in the steroid era he would have joined the PED party. Those of us who care about the HOF know that this generation's stats are inflated by PEDs...so what. Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's inclusion does not diminish the accomplishments of those already enshrined. What are we going to do deny an entire generation of players? If we do so then you might as well close the doors to the HOF because I will never go back. This issue really puts Hank Aaron's accomplishments in perspective. Those numbers are pre-steroid and post integration. I believe he is the greatest hitter of all time. Maddux's numbers are even more amazing considering his era. Thanks for indulging me while I pontificate.

As is Pedro's