OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

Sadly, I think if he'd stayed clean and been a bit nicer as a person he'd still have the career HR record, He just would have gotten it a couple years later. And may have stuck around a couple more.

Steve B

Steve, are just trying to placate the pro-Barry guys? Have you seen pictures of what he looked like in his pre-steroid days?

[sycks22]

Bonds are a great player before the 'roids, but he wasn't a future home run king. Before his 73 season he never hit 50. The fact that when most player's skills are fading if they're even still in ball at 37 years old Bonds somehow hits 73 is ridiculous. Bonds wasn't a team player, he didn't care about anyone except himself. I hope he never sniffs Cooperstown.

[Iron Horse]

Why don't they put in some that deserve to be there like Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Steve garvey...These are players that deserve to be in there and need votes to get in.
Loved Bonds, McGwire, Clemens...All were great players but i think they don't belong in the HOF due to cheating. My opinion only.

[gashouse34]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Bonds are a great player before the 'roids, but he wasn't a future home run king. Before his 73 season he never hit 50. The fact that when most player's skills are fading if they're even still in ball at 37 years old Bonds somehow hits 73 is ridiculous. Bonds wasn't a team player, he didn't care about anyone except himself. I hope he never sniffs Cooperstown.

+1

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Bonds are a great player before the 'roids, but he wasn't a future home run king. Before his 73 season he never hit 50. The fact that when most player's skills are fading if they're even still in ball at 37 years old Bonds somehow hits 73 is ridiculous. Bonds wasn't a team player, he didn't care about anyone except himself. I hope he never sniffs Cooperstown.

So what, you don't need to hit 50. Just look at the man he supplanted, did he hit 50...

[71buc]

I am a weight lifter and have been or many years. Wherever there is weight lifting there are drugs. I never used steroids only because i could not afford them. I remember sitting in gyms talking about Incaviglia back when he came up pre-Canseco. I am not saying that Incaviglia was juicing. However, his arrival made it fairly obvious to those of us in that culture that serious weight lifting had arrived in baseball. We also knew that drugs were soon to follow just as night follows day. PEDs do not create ability they enhance it. Genetics cannot be improved upon. While on androgenics the journeyman becomes a steady player, the average player becomes a star, the superstar becomes a legend. I remember laughing when androstenedione was discovered in McGwire's locker. It is banned in other sports due to it being used as an masking agent. Athletes who used said indignantly, "I am not on steroids I'm on andro". In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance. My friend refused to believe me. Seven years later the Selena Roberts article came out in SI and I was the first person my friend, then employed by the scouting bureau, called. Unfortunately that whole generation of players is suspect. It doesn't make them less it makes them different. They are a product of their time. Just as Ruth was the product of his. Despite playing pre integration, night baseball, and coast to coast travel, Ruth would have succeeded in any generation. The numbers would not be as gaudy but they still would have been there because of genetics. However, I suspect that if he played in the steroid era he would have joined the PED party. Those of us who care about the HOF know that this generation's stats are inflated by PEDs...so what. Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's inclusion does not diminish the accomplishments of those already enshrined. What are we going to do deny an entire generation of players? If we do so then you might as well close the doors to the HOF because I will never go back. This issue really puts Hank Aaron's accomplishments in perspective. Those numbers are pre-steroid and post integration. I believe he is the greatest hitter of all time. Maddux's numbers are even more amazing considering his era. Thanks for indulging me while I pontificate.

[bcbgcbrcb]

There is no doubt that Bonds, before taking steroids, was a Hall of Famer. He would not have been classified as possibly the best ever, but almost certainly a first ballot selection.

Just like Rose & Jackson, before their poor decisions entered the picture, were no doubt Hall of Famers. Clemens likely as well but not quite as clear as Bonds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bonds absolutely was a HOFer before his alleged steroid use. Three MVPs, and the consensus best all around player in baseball for a decade.

[yanks12025]

I bet Bonds was on the juice for MOST of his career and not just the last couple years.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

[QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.

[yanks12025]

[QUOTE=HOF Auto Rookies;1056992][QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.[/QUOTE]

A-rod didn't use in 2007, he admitted to using in the years 2001-03 in 2007.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

[QUOTE=yanks12025;1056995]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

A-rod didn't use in 2007, he admitted to using in the years 2001-03 in 2007.

Sorry, you are correct, looked at the wrong time frames. That's when the article came out, disregard my prior message. But prior to those seasons, he had three consecutive 40 hr seasons, I don't know why he used. But basing it off his age I do not agree with, being just 25-26 at the time of the first usage.

[glynparson]

Played against a segregated non global opponent yes Bonds was the greatest left fielder of alltime, no doubt at all in my mind.

[glynparson]

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

[sylbry]

There is one very simple truth. Nearly 100 years after Ruth first took the field he is still being considered one of the greatest players who ever lived. And it is safe to say he will still be considered that 100 years from now.

With Bonds, as technology and science continues to progress Bonds will be an after thought.

Ruth's success was based strictly on raw ability. So much so HE CHANGED THE WAY THE GAME WAS PLAYED. Bonds' success was due in a very large part to progression in sports medicine and science... the best bats, the best balls, body armor, the best nutrition, the best medicine, the best training, and the best drugs.

Make no mistake about it, if MLB opens the door to freely allow players to do what Bonds was doing, Bonds won't look so great. Can you imagine a player with Mantle's natural ability having the advantages Bonds' had? For most of Bonds' career he wasn't even the best player in the league. That would be Griffey Jr. It wasn't until he started using that he because so feared.

And since we are pointing out difference in eras, ponder these two:

Ruth hit 54 homers in 1920. Ray Chapman died late in the 1920 season. MLB did not start using new balls until after. Ruth hit 54 homers while playing with beat up baseballs.

And do you think for a second Bonds would have gotten away with crowding the plate in the 1920's? Think he would have tried without his body armor?

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career...

Playing D-3 college baseball is not a path of a pro career.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Playing D-3 college baseball is not a path of a pro career.

Yes because I forgot how much you knew about my life. When you googled me, did you find anything about the scholarships I had that gotten taken away because I blew everything in my shoulder. Did it tell you about the scouts and the pro teams I worked out for?

Just shut the up and don't bring a personal matter into this fun and interesting debate, that is extremely classless and immature on your end. All because of a disagreement over someone's opinion.

You must not know shit about baseball, they find talent in all levels. Ever heard of Jordan Zimmermann? 2nd round pick of the Nats a few years ago. Guess where he came from. Yeah D3.

Just cause you were a terrible athlete and rode the pine, doesn't mean you just go and post about someone else because your daddy couldn't convince the coach to not cut you.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Yes because I forgot how much you knew about my life. When you googled me, did you find anything about the scholarships I had that gotten taken away because I blew everything in my shoulder. Did it tell you about the scouts and the pro teams I worked out for?

Just shut the up and don't bring a personal matter into this fun and interesting debate, that is extremely classless and immature on your end. All because of a disagreement over someone's opinion.

You must not know shit about baseball, they find talent in all levels. Ever heard of Jordan Zimmermann? 2nd round pick of the Nats a few years ago. Guess where he came from. Yeah D3.

Just cause you were a terrible athlete and rode the pine, doesn't mean you just go and post about someone else because your daddy couldn't convince the coach to not cut you.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Lets just please get back to this discussion, because I love hearing everyone's opinions and arguments, and that helps make this game great.

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by 71buc

I am a weight lifter and have been or many years. Wherever there is weight lifting there are drugs. I never used steroids only because i could not afford them. I remember sitting in gyms talking about Incaviglia back when he came up pre-Canseco. I am not saying that Incaviglia was juicing. However, his arrival made it fairly obvious to those of us in that culture that serious weight lifting had arrived in baseball. We also knew that drugs were soon to follow just as night follows day. PEDs do not create ability they enhance it. Genetics cannot be improved upon. While on androgenics the journeyman becomes a steady player, the average player becomes a star, the superstar becomes a legend. I remember laughing when androstenedione was discovered in McGwire's locker. It is banned in other sports due to it being used as an masking agent. Athletes who used said indignantly, "I am not on steroids I'm on andro". In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance. My friend refused to believe me. Seven years later the Selena Roberts article came out in SI and I was the first person my friend, then employed by the scouting bureau, called. Unfortunately that whole generation of players is suspect. It doesn't make them less it makes them different. They are a product of their time. Just as Ruth was the product of his. Despite playing pre integration, night baseball, and coast to coast travel, Ruth would have succeeded in any generation. The numbers would not be as gaudy but they still would have been there because of genetics. However, I suspect that if he played in the steroid era he would have joined the PED party. Those of us who care about the HOF know that this generation's stats are inflated by PEDs...so what. Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's inclusion does not diminish the accomplishments of those already enshrined. What are we going to do deny an entire generation of players? If we do so then you might as well close the doors to the HOF because I will never go back. This issue really puts Hank Aaron's accomplishments in perspective. Those numbers are pre-steroid and post integration. I believe he is the greatest hitter of all time. Maddux's numbers are even more amazing considering his era. Thanks for indulging me while I pontificate.

As is Pedro's

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, are just trying to placate the pro-Barry guys? Have you seen pictures of what he looked like in his pre-steroid days?

Not at all. And I'm hardly a fan of Bonds.

But if you believe the 1999 start of steroids for him, he was a pretty consistent HR hitter, upper 30's lower 40's most years.

Then
2000 49
2001 73
2002 46
2003 45
2004 45
2005 5
2006 26
2007 28

That's 317 or almost exactly 40 a year

Figure the first three years he might have been close to that,
The next three maybe only mid-low 30's and the last two the same as he did.
The breakdown in 05 I'm almost positive was a "coming off steroids" injury.
That looks like
2000 41
2001 37
2002 39
2003 35
2004 32
2005 33
2006 26
2007 28
(The numbers aren't scientifically applied, just made up)
That's 271, only 46 short of where he actually got.

Although he was hitting pretty well for his age (And not bad for any age)at the end, he was dropped very quickly after he got the record. Mostly because of the juicing and his splendid personality. Think about it, a guy hitting .276 with 28 homers got precisely 0 interest as a free agent. Not even from an AL team that could hide him at DH

A nicer guy who was about 40 HR short of the all time record and hitting 26-28 a year would have had a bunch of interest even if it was only as a gate draw for a weak team. A couple years, a record, and a graceful retirement or final year back in Pittsburg and there it is.

Steve B

And - He maybe could have done it quicker, without the monster year with 73 he'd have seen a lot more good pitches.

[Peter_Spaeth]

i think he would have tailed off a lot more than that in his late 30s early 40s without the juice.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

i think he would have tailed off a lot more than that in his late 30s early 40s without the juice.

It's possible. And that's the great thing about baseball "what if " discussions.

I figured on a gradual dropoff to his final two years which I assumed were done clean.
A sharp dropoff would have maybe left him at the upper 600's ?

The big tripping point is his attitude. It cost him at least a year. clean with the same attitude and a quick dropoff? Maybe he doesn't stay around long enough for even 600.


Of course, while we're onto whatifs, If the Sox had ever signed Kingman we'd be wondering how none of these guys could hit 90 even with steroids.

And does anyone recall the Topps "cyber stats" cards from 94? They did projected stats based on some computer program and used them for an insert set. The computer had Barry at something like 73 HR.

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's possible. And that's the great thing about baseball "what if " discussions.

I figured on a gradual dropoff to his final two years which I assumed were done clean.
A sharp dropoff would have maybe left him at the upper 600's ?

The big tripping point is his attitude. It cost him at least a year. clean with the same attitude and a quick dropoff? Maybe he doesn't stay around long enough for even 600.


Of course, while we're onto whatifs, If the Sox had ever signed Kingman we'd be wondering how none of these guys could hit 90 even with steroids.

And does anyone recall the Topps "cyber stats" cards from 94? They did projected stats based on some computer program and used them for an insert set. The computer had Barry at something like 73 HR.

Steve B

Longest home run I ever saw in person was Kingman at Fenway with the As. Canseco had just hit a rinky dink one to right and kingman steps up and hits it ten miles over the wall. In the paper the next day they said it paid its toll on the turnpike and was last seen heading west.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Longest home run I ever saw in person was Kingman at Fenway with the As. Canseco had just hit a rinky dink one to right and kingman steps up and hits it ten miles over the wall. In the paper the next day they said it paid its toll on the turnpike and was last seen heading west.

Love hearing about Mick's supposed 636 or so foot bomb. That's just unreal.

I heard of the Kingman shot, incredible

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Love hearing about Mick's supposed 636 or so foot bomb. That's just unreal.

I heard of the Kingman shot, incredible

kingman had huge holes in his swing and most often would strike out or hit a pathetic grounder, but when the pitchers left one out over the plate, amazing things could happen

earlier in his career i happened to catch a game at wrigley and saw him hit one clean out of the stadium, in person it was really quite amazing to see

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Love hearing about Mick's supposed 636 or so foot bomb. That's just unreal.

I heard of the Kingman shot, incredible

The longest home run hit to left field at Fenway was 501+ ft. by Manny Ramirez, a half foot shorter than Williams had hit to right many years earlier. (into the wind I might add)

Kingman's longest shot I believe was hit in 1976 at Wrigley during the 23-22 game with the Phils. It traveled over 570 feet! I'm sure the wind was blowing out that day
I don't believe Mantle ever hiy a ball 636 feet.