OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[HOF Auto Rookies]

[QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.

[yanks12025]

[QUOTE=HOF Auto Rookies;1056992][QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.[/QUOTE]

A-rod didn't use in 2007, he admitted to using in the years 2001-03 in 2007.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

[QUOTE=yanks12025;1056995]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

A-rod didn't use in 2007, he admitted to using in the years 2001-03 in 2007.

Sorry, you are correct, looked at the wrong time frames. That's when the article came out, disregard my prior message. But prior to those seasons, he had three consecutive 40 hr seasons, I don't know why he used. But basing it off his age I do not agree with, being just 25-26 at the time of the first usage.

[glynparson]

Played against a segregated non global opponent yes Bonds was the greatest left fielder of alltime, no doubt at all in my mind.

[glynparson]

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

So because your opinion must be right, what year did Bonds first start using steroids then???? So say if Bonds started taking steroids in 1990 in which he won his first MVP. So he'd then be a hall of famer/all-time great based on his first three years in the majors... Simple answer NO.

You can't say he would have been a hall of famer/all-time great pre-steroids, because we don't know WHEN Bonds started taking steroids.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

So because your opinion must be right, what year did Bonds first start using steroids then???? So say if Bonds started taking steroids in 1990 in which he won his first MVP. So he'd then be a hall of famer/all-time great based on his first three years in the majors... Simple answer NO.

You can't say he would have been a hall of famer/all-time great pre-steroids, because we don't know WHEN Bonds started taking steroids.

So what if Bonds started taking steroids in 2004, is his prior numbers not good enough?...Simple answer, YES.

[glynparson]

In 1999, this is not nor should it be news to anyone that has closely followed this story or Bonds's career. He along with Griffey Jr are the premiere 5 tool players of their generation, The Mays and Mantle of their eras.

[71buc]

I am NOT a Bonds fan. That being said he was not ever found to be guilty of using PEDs. Photographs reveal dramatic changes to his physique begining around 1999. If considered as evidence the photos raise suspicion but that is all (see Ryan Franklin). I think his overall game declined after 1999. He was far more of a complete player prior to that IMO. That could be attributed to age as much as the rapid changes to his body. I think that his pre 1999 numbers were HOF worthy. Those years alone his ability would land him in any discussion regarding the greatest players of all time. When he reached his second prime thats an entirely different story. Nonetheless, he belongs in Cooperstown next to my favorite players Clemente and Aaron. His inclusion does not deminish either of them. His numbers will always be looked at with a jaundiced eye by everyone who watched that generation of players.

I am a firm believer that if every player from that generation was honest about PED usage we would find more pitchers than hitters used them. PEDs make much more sense for a pitcher not in terms in size gains or increased velocity but in their value to aid in recovery especially for relievers.

[sylbry]

There is one very simple truth. Nearly 100 years after Ruth first took the field he is still being considered one of the greatest players who ever lived. And it is safe to say he will still be considered that 100 years from now.

With Bonds, as technology and science continues to progress Bonds will be an after thought.

Ruth's success was based strictly on raw ability. So much so HE CHANGED THE WAY THE GAME WAS PLAYED. Bonds' success was due in a very large part to progression in sports medicine and science... the best bats, the best balls, body armor, the best nutrition, the best medicine, the best training, and the best drugs.

Make no mistake about it, if MLB opens the door to freely allow players to do what Bonds was doing, Bonds won't look so great. Can you imagine a player with Mantle's natural ability having the advantages Bonds' had? For most of Bonds' career he wasn't even the best player in the league. That would be Griffey Jr. It wasn't until he started using that he because so feared.

And since we are pointing out difference in eras, ponder these two:

Ruth hit 54 homers in 1920. Ray Chapman died late in the 1920 season. MLB did not start using new balls until after. Ruth hit 54 homers while playing with beat up baseballs.

And do you think for a second Bonds would have gotten away with crowding the plate in the 1920's? Think he would have tried without his body armor?

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career...

Playing D-3 college baseball is not a path of a pro career.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Playing D-3 college baseball is not a path of a pro career.

Yes because I forgot how much you knew about my life. When you googled me, did you find anything about the scholarships I had that gotten taken away because I blew everything in my shoulder. Did it tell you about the scouts and the pro teams I worked out for?

Just shut the up and don't bring a personal matter into this fun and interesting debate, that is extremely classless and immature on your end. All because of a disagreement over someone's opinion.

You must not know shit about baseball, they find talent in all levels. Ever heard of Jordan Zimmermann? 2nd round pick of the Nats a few years ago. Guess where he came from. Yeah D3.

Just cause you were a terrible athlete and rode the pine, doesn't mean you just go and post about someone else because your daddy couldn't convince the coach to not cut you.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Yes because I forgot how much you knew about my life. When you googled me, did you find anything about the scholarships I had that gotten taken away because I blew everything in my shoulder. Did it tell you about the scouts and the pro teams I worked out for?

Just shut the up and don't bring a personal matter into this fun and interesting debate, that is extremely classless and immature on your end. All because of a disagreement over someone's opinion.

You must not know shit about baseball, they find talent in all levels. Ever heard of Jordan Zimmermann? 2nd round pick of the Nats a few years ago. Guess where he came from. Yeah D3.

Just cause you were a terrible athlete and rode the pine, doesn't mean you just go and post about someone else because your daddy couldn't convince the coach to not cut you.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Lets just please get back to this discussion, because I love hearing everyone's opinions and arguments, and that helps make this game great.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Lets just please get back to this discussion, because I love hearing everyone's opinions and arguments, and that helps make this game great.

Go ahead and respond to the points I made.

And for the record I made nothing person, just pointed out D-3 college ball isn't a path to the pros. You on the other hand...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Go ahead and respond to the points I made.

And for the record I made nothing person, just pointed out D-3 college ball isn't a path to the pros. You on the other hand...

How the heck was that not personal!? Lets see, you spent the time to google me, found out where I went to school, then quoted my saying, "D3 isn't a path to the pros." And then the, "you on the other hand..."

What are you trying to get at? Any level is a path, dont be blind by your arrogance. Heard of Toe Nash? Probably not because it doesn't seem like you know much about baseball, but google him. I reiterate, just cause mommy and daddy couldn't get the coach to not cut you, you don't need to try to personally attack someone. Grow up