T206 Buyers Beware

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

When I saw that Mathewson Sovereign 460 in the SCP auction it immediately reminded me of a fake T206 Young (bare hand) that I came across late last year. In both cases the black rectangular line just inside the white border seemed just a little bit too thick and almost wavy in parts.

Anyway, I bought the T206 Young in an Ebay auction back in November. The seller mentioned that PSA had returned it as altered (the seller also enclosed the PSA rejection flip) and offered a money back guarantee. I assumed (hoped) that the alteration was merely trimming, which doesn't really bother me. When I received the card I immediately realized that something was "off" about it. The aforementioned black line was the first tip off, but the most telling feature was that when I ran my finger over the surface of the card, the black line was actually raised from the surface. T206s shouldn't have varying altitudes within the same card. In three decades of collecting T206s I'd never encountered that, so I knew it was fake. The EPDG back, however, was real. Major Shenanigans. Here's the card:

Is it possible that they removed only the front image (black box and inward, only) from a real EPDG-backed card, scraped the image off, then glued a real Cy Young image into the hole and 'cleaned up', as opposed to re-backing the card?

[Jaybird]

maybe, but what about the caption?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

maybe, but what about the caption?

Doh! nevermind.

[iggyman]

Perhaps a silly observation but on the Sovereign Mathewson (the PSA graded card), the alignment of the name on the bottom is a little bit off. If you focus on his bottom shirt button, you will see what I mean. Here is the Soverign followed by the Tolstoi card:

mathtest2.JPG

mathtest5.JPG

If you look at the Tolstoi Mathewson, the "W" and "S" more or less align with the bottom button (that is how it should be). But on the Sovereign Mathewson, the "S" aligns with the button. Not sure if it means anything...........all the Mathewson's that I see align just like the raw Tolstoi (consistently with the "W" and "S" under the button).

mathcombo2.jpg



Lovely Day...

[Abravefan11]

Iggy - Not a silly observation but I think I can explain it. Look just above Matty's head on the Tolstoi backed example and you will see the brown color pass is off slightly. This would account for the caption also being shifted to the left.

[Jaybird]

did someone make a "Mathewson, NY" stamp? Cut the center out of the image, perhaps erase the name that was previously on the card, replace center image and stamp the name?

I dunno but just throwing it out there to see if it sticks.

This is one I had previously with it lining up on the E. Maybe there is a bit of variable here. Piedmont 150 back.

[iggyman]

Thanks Tim, I now see the faint shadow of brown on his head. Good observation and thanks for the lesson. One question, since I don't have a Mathewson in-hand at the moment. The team designation on his uniform (N.Y.) also appears to be brown??? If so, it did not shift to the left, not even a millimeter.

Lovely Day...

[Abravefan11]

Iggy - I was just overlaying the two images and like you said the N.Y. is in the same place even though the brown run is shifted. It appears the N.Y. was printed with one of the other color passes.

[iggyman]

Perhaps I'm grasping at straws but for the better part of 30 minutes, I have been searching for T206 Mathewson portrait cards online. I've looked at high grade examples, low grade beaters, Sovereign backs, Piedmont backs, Sweet Caporal backs, one Hindu back, trimmed ones, VCP ones, major auctions ones, and a few really ugly ones. Yet, for the life of me I cannot find one example where the "S" on his name aligns underneath the lower button.

If possible, can Net54ers who have a T206 Mathewson portrait do me a favor and check to see if you have one with the name and button aligned in this manner:

mathtest2.JPG

Tim, no disrespect but I believe your analysis concerning the shifting to the left of the bottom text is incorrect. First of all, after looking at my T206 Mathewson portrait under a loupe, I'm convinced that the "N." and "Y." on his uniform are the same brown color as the bottom text. Thus, if one shifts the other should shift as well. If we find a real one that has shifted it would hopefully prove this theory. Secondly, you mentioned the brown by Mathewson head in the "Tolstoi" backed example is slightly off. That might be true, but the one in question is the SOVEREIGN Mathewson. That is the one that has shifted to the left.

Lovely Day...

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Iggy - Not a silly observation but I think I can explain it. Look just above Matty's head on the Tolstoi backed example and you will see the brown color pass is off slightly. This would account for the caption also being shifted to the left.

[Runscott]

Iggy - Tim's correct about this. I've seen plenty of examples where I had two identical cards, but the name at the bottom was aligned differently (to the left or right). It's true that there will be a 'normal' alignment, but finding deviations isn't a big deal.

[atx840]

Aligned to the left image border you can see the PB backed (2nd from the top) Hofman is shifted to the left.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by iggyman

Tim, no disrespect but I believe your analysis concerning the shifting to the left of the bottom text is incorrect.

Iggy - Never any disrespect and thank you for continuing to look at it. If the caption was printed with the brown color pass it should be off like the rest of the brown in the image. But after looking at it more closely you're right and I believe the captions on the two bad cards are fake and not part of subject image that was used.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Iggy - Never any disrespect and thank you for continuing to look at it. If the caption was printed with the brown color pass it should be off like the rest of the brown in the image. But after looking at it more closely you're right and I believe the captions on the two bad cards are fake and not part of subject image that was used.

What are your thoughts on how the front was reconstructed? I can see them scraping off the original image and adding a new one, as described in my previous post, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone could scrape off the original caption and print a new one, AND get it past the graders.

Perhaps I give the graders too much credit.

Thoughts?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Is it possible that they removed only the front image (black box and inward, only) from a real EPDG-backed card, scraped the image off, then glued a real Cy Young image into the hole and 'cleaned up', as opposed to re-backing the card?

It is virtually impossible to "re-back" a T206 card which will get past a Grading Co. Conversely, you can "shave" the front off a T206 card, and laminate a reproduced front.
A professional paper restorer can accomplish this so that a Grading Co. will not discern that it is a FAKE. This is exactly what was done 12 years ago when we saw Cobb's,
Matty's, etc. with impossible F/B combos.

I posted a Net54 thread on this process 2 years ago titled...." Rebacked T206's....heck NO....perhaps, they are Re-Fronted DRUM, HINDU cards ? "
Here is the Link......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=re-fronted

I was criticized back then by quite a number of Net54er's, when I claimed that the red Cobb with the red HINDU back was a Re-Fronted fake. Since then, some of my critics
have come around to agreeing with me regarding this particular red Cobb/red HINDU card.

Regarding these two latest fakes, I guess the scammers cannot find anymore tougher backs to "gimmick up"....such as common T206 DRUM's, Red HINDU's, and UZIT cards.

Consider this......the bad news was the LOST commons of DRUM's, red HINDU's, and UZIT cards that were RUINED in the process of these scammers attempts to Re-Front
STAR cards.

The good news (so far) is that these scammers are unfamiliar with the F/B combos of these T206's; therefore, we caught most of these fakes.


T-Rex TED

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I was criticized back then by quite a number of Net54er's, when I claimed that the red Cobb with the red HINDU back was a Re-Fronted fake. Since then, some of my critics
have come around to agreeing with me regarding this particular red Cobb/red HINDU card.

T-Rex TED

Ted, it's not always about us and them. If you could share your information without pointing out who is/was right and wrong, it might be easier to swallow.

"Critics, detractors, I was right, they've come around" etc. It doesn't make it easy to read and comes off like you have an agenda.

Just my .02 cents.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

It doesn't make it easy to read and comes off like you have an agenda.

Jason

The only "agenda" I had when I posted that thread 2 years ago....and, the only "agenda" I currently have is to caution Net54er's, so that some one isn't stuck
spending a lot of their hard-earned $$$$ buying a FAKE card.


Incidently Jason....thanks for referring Mike B to me, regarding the LENOX card.


TED Z

[obcmac]

I'm curious...did anybody ever figure out where these cards originated?

Also, did they only create impossible combos, or did they make other fakes too? I'm kind of shocked to hear that the reproduced fronts can slip by graders...but I guess I shouldn't be.

Mac

[bundy462]

I stumbled across a WoJo portrait with a Carolina Brights back about a year or so ago. I believe it was one of these. I don't think that's a possible combination. I don't recall where it was or what the price was, it was when I was just getting into pre-war cards and before my net54 days. It was, of course, immaculate.

[atx840]

As suggested, could one not take a high grade common, cut out the player along the black border to hide the switch, replace it with a clean authentic Mathewson portrait from a card with border issues, remove the name and stamp Mathewson on it?

And then there is this controversial card

[Abravefan11]

Chris - I'm sure anything is possible but cutting the image out of the border seems unlikely to me. The most plausible to me is that the entire front was removed and replaced. A board member once showed an example of a T206 with a Piedmont back that he had removed the front and replaced with a T205 front. In this case it appears the fronts being added to the real backs are fake. Again I haven't held one in my hand, but I would like to.

The Cobb red Hindu is great fodder for debate but I have yet to speak with anyone that can show me evidence that the card isn't good. I have heard the stories and rumors and I have learned some of them simply are not true. The card might not be good but at this point I haven't seen any reason to say it isn't.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

It is virtually impossible to "re-back" a T206 card which will get past a Grading Co. Conversely, you can "shave" the front off a T206 card, and laminate a reproduced front.
A professional paper restorer can accomplish this so that a Grading Co. will not discern that it is a FAKE. This is exactly what was done 12 years ago when we saw Cobb's,
Matty's, etc. with impossible F/B combos.

.................

T-Rex TED

Thanks Ted - very good information.