Harry Wright Autograph

[PhilNap]

Regarding the issue of who should pay . . the seller or the authenticator? . . I thought I'd chime in on a similar issue I recently had.

Nine years ago I purchased an autograph for from a rather prominent autograph dealer. The piece was acquired by him through a major auction house and was accompanied by a PSA/DNA auction house letter. In my recent attempt to sell the item it was determined that the signature was not genuine but was in fact a stamp. By the same authenticator's admission, when the item was authenticated nine years earlier, this stamp variation was not known. When I informed the dealer who sold me the item about this discovery I had significant difficulty obtaining a cash refund despite the written lifetime guaranty that he provided at the time of sale. While he did offer a credit towards items in his inventory, we were far apart on what constituted equal value. After several weeks of back and forth, his outright refusal to provide a cash refund, and my threat of litigation, he called on Joe Orlando from PSA/DNA to get involved.

I agree with Rich's point where he states that "The seller should always be the one to give a refund. If the seller then wants to take it up with (the authenticator) that is his business, but the seller is the one with the ultimate responsibility." Afterall, my dealing were not with PSA and this guy gave me his own written guaranty. And as far as I know, neither PSA or JSA have a buyback guaranty as all they are offering is a professional opinion.

Nonetheless, Joe Orlando called me and asked that I deal directly with him to resolve the matter. Within a week I had a check from Collector's Universe reimbursing my full cost of the item. I had never before used PSA/DNA's services and had no prior dealing with Mr. Orlando. I haven't mentioned the dealer by name as it is not my intention to drag his name into a public forum. My intention here is to illustrate how a similar situation the Wrght signature was handled and to express how impressed I was with the way Mr. Orlando handled the matter. While I was greatly disappointed in the way the dealer handled things I thought this would be a good place to say something nice about an authenticator for a change. They had no obligation to me, but for the sake of good business, they did the right thing. I only hope the dealer they bailed out is as appreciative as I am.

[danc]

A prominent dealer, do tell? :-)

The pass anything guys would no longer exist if they were responsible for their own opinions.

RFS no longer. How about Costa Rico-rd (or Costo Richard).

You ever notice how the "pass anything authenticators" don't delve the very few shows to advertise their wares? It may have something to do with facing the public who has knows all about their practices, but I think they would do a bang up business. Go to the JSA or PSA/DNA booth and have something denied and then go to their booth.

DanC

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by PhilNap

Nonetheless, Joe Orlando called me and asked that I deal directly with him to resolve the matter. Within a week I had a check from Collector's Universe reimbursing my full cost of the item. I had never before used PSA/DNA's services and had no prior dealing with Mr. Orlando. I haven't mentioned the dealer by name as it is not my intention to drag his name into a public forum. My intention here is to illustrate how a similar situation the Wrght signature was handled and to express how impressed I was with the way Mr. Orlando handled the matter. While I was greatly disappointed in the way the dealer handled things I thought this would be a good place to say something nice about an authenticator for a change. They had no obligation to me, but for the sake of good business, they did the right thing. I only hope the dealer they bailed out is as appreciative as I am.

Just out of curiousity do you do a ton of business with PSA? I'm just wondering if that factored into their decision to refund you.

[Abravefan11]

nm

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Just out of curiousity do you do a ton of business with PSA? I'm just wondering if that factored into their decision to refund you.

I do not. Had them slab a ticket stub for me once at a show but that's it. A refund from them was unexpected and still not something I would "expect" as there is no obligation on their part. I don't use third party authenticators often (sometimes when I plan to sell an item). However, in light of how this was handled, if the need arises I would certainly be inclined to use them and recommend them.

[tinkereversandme]

So if this Harry Wright is not an authentic handwritten note and signature, is "the authenticator mislabeling it" just a kind way of saying that they authenticated a signature which they assumed was of the subject, but is not.

Sure it's not a forgery, but it's also "not authentic". I guess the difference between a forger and what this is is the lack of intent to defraud I guess. The same way the hobby regards wife signed stuff and clubhouse signatures.

Larry

[D. Bergin]

This is why I try not to deal in a lot of autographs. I do handle them in my field but turn down a large majority of those I am offered.

As a general question to what people's thoughts are:

What are the circumstances in which a seller is obligated to give a refund to a buyer on an autograph?

#1. PSA says it's bad

#2. JSA says it's bad

#3. PSA says it's bad, but JSA says it's good...........or visa versa.

#4. You're one of these "knowledgeable" dealers..........but PSA or JSA says it's bad............or "questionable". Others, possibly a few posters on NET54, says it's good.

#5. PSA or JSA or both says the autograph is good..........but certain posters on NET54 think it's bad.

Since PSA and JSA only give "their opinions" and are not monetarily on the hook for a "bad opinion"....are the opinions of the dealer allowed to be taken into account if "their opinion" does not jive with that of the 3rd Party Authenticator in regards to a refund.

I guess what I'm getting at................is who has the final say? Is every autograph ever signed in question, until such time somebody, somewhere says........."This is no good", and then whoever has it at that time is left holding the bag? Or whichever dealer touched it last?

I know of a couple major dealers in my main field of "Boxing" who have decided that "They" have the final say, because they don't trust the 3rd Party Authenticators anymore, and will not give refunds based on their conclusions.

The claim is that these 3rd Parties do not have the experience in boxing and there is just too much evidence of them passing bad autographs and rejecting good autographs. Or more to the point............deeming them "questionable" because they just don't have the answer, and causing buyers to decide "questionable" is the same thing as "Not Good".

Let me be clear..........I don't have the answers here and am not on one side of the fence or the other. I reject most autographs that come across my desk and limit myself generally to low end autographs, for the most part because I don't want to deal with these particular questions myself.

I'm Just curious on where the line is drawn.

[GrayGhost]

Well stated Dave, and I'm curious as to others opinions on what you wrote. To me, if an autograph comes JSA or PSA authenticated, it has more weight, based on OVERALL perceptions in the hobby. But, even they make mistakes. It all comes down to "trust" and "leap of faith" unless you had something signed in front of you. But, when buying, say Gehrig, Matty, Ruth, Harry Wright, etc, its an awful big leap of faith to take.

[danc]

Tinker, Bergin and Ghost...good points. You take a signature that is perceived to be bad by a number of experts who aren't authenticators, but solid dealers, specialized in the area of the signature or auction house heads and it comes with a top authenticating cert, it will forever be good in the minds of those who totally trust these companies, while the expert or dealer would pass on it. There is so much weight placed on the cert in this instance as there is a solid following and trust with them. All authenticators make mistakes. Some more than others. Some never get it right and are discussed here with venom...monthly.

DanC

[mighty bombjack]

This Harry Wright telegraph has appeared for sale again in the latest Clean Sweep auction