The second and third greatest base stealers of all time?

[Beercan collector]

I’d go with Tim Raines , wish I could say Davey Lopes one of my favorite players
. Lopes didn’t break into the league until he was 28 and at the age of 40! he stole 47 bases in 51 attempts

[D. Bergin]

I'll break it down into categories like Rickey's career.

Under 30 years old and Over 30 years old.

Best Under 30 - Rock Raines

Best Over 30 - Davey Lopes

Both for their ruthless efficiency.

Very soft spot for Vince Coleman. Those 1st 5-6 years in the league was just chaos on the basepaths.

He wasn't as good at getting on base as Rickey, and that really hurt him as he aged and became less and less valuable as an all-around player...but when he did...man...he was going, whether you liked it or not.

Willie McGee was the much better and more valuable player of the 2 speedsters on those Cardinals teams. Hell, even Ozzie, Tommy Herr and Andy Van Slyke were better players, and more efficient then Vince, but man, was Vince fun to watch when he got on.

Also, feels a little wrong to leave Lou Brock out of the equation, even if a lot of people think he might have been a little over-rated.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Also, feels and little wrong to leave Lou Brock out of the equation, even if a lot of people think he might have been a little over-rated.

How could anyone think Lou Brock was overrated? He was the MVP of the 1967 World Series and won both the Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award and the Sporting News Player of the Year Award in 1974. He hit .304 at the age of forty and had a lifetime batting average of .293.

Was he that bad a fielder or something?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bk400

Ty Cobb may have been a freak of nature in his era....

I know it is unfair to compare across eras....

That's precisely it, and why I think Ty Cobb is a very legitimate candidate for inclusion on a list of the very top base stealers of all time.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

That's precisely it, and why I think Ty Cobb is a very legitimate candidate for inclusion on a list of the very top base stealers of all time.

But if we are selecting the "best ever", we are forced to compare across eras.

Paavo Nurmi is tied (with Carl Lewis) with the most track and field Olympic gold medals -- and he was rightfully a legend of his time -- but he never ran against a Kenyan or an Ethiopian.

If you think that Nurmi is one of the best middle distance runners "ever", then I suppose I understand why you'd go with Ty Cobb for base stealing.

[Casey2296]

Ty Cobb is certainly in the conversation, if the argument is that Cobb was a modern player talent wise playing with a bunch of Rubes for 20 years and wound up with 897 stolen bases (4th all time) without the league trying to do everything they could to stop him, which would include things that aren't allowed in the modern era. I'm just not buying it.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bk400

But if we are selecting the "best ever", we are forced to compare across eras.

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

I think it was Aparicio who revitalized the stolen base in the late 50s, but even he was putting up numbers in the 50s. Wills' season was insane. It's hard to have a conversation about stolen bases without Cobb, Wills and Brock, IMO.

[KJA]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

Are we not counting Billy Hamilton since he was pre 1900? He had over 100 a few times.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

To me it’s no contest…… Ty Cobb held the record until 1977 with 892…… including an incredible 54 steals of home!!! No one else even comes close!!

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

It should also be mentioned that Ty Cobb led the American League in stolen bases a whopping six times - 1907(49), 1909(76), 1911(83), 1915(96), 1916(68) and 1917(55). Cobb was unquestionably a phenomenal base stealer.

(Not my card.)

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

How could anyone think Lou Brock was overrated? He was the MVP of the 1967 World Series and won both the Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award and the Sporting News Player of the Year Award in 1974. He hit .304 at the age of forty and had a lifetime batting average of .293.

Was he that bad a fielder or something?

I never saw him play in person, but analytics don't like him very much. For a non-power guy and leadoff hitter, he had a very respectable batting average, but he struck out waaaay more then he walked.

For perspective he struck out more then Rickey Henderson in about 2100 less plate appearances, while walking almost 1500 less times.

Defensive metrics kind of hate him to. His range factor was very good for most of the 60's, but he either led the league in outfield errors, or was near the top in almost every year he played the outfield. Errors aren't the end all be all when it comes to Outfield play, so I'm guessing he had a weaker arm and extra bases were taken on him, on a regular basis.

Rickey wasn't a great outfielder either, at least from the eye test, but the metrics there favor him much much better, then Lou Brock, and they both played the majority of their careers in Left Field...so there isn't a Center Fielder bias working for either player.

That said, I think Lou Brock is a player you would have loved to have had on your team, one way or another. Whether you think he might have been over-rated, under-rated, or just right.