The second and third greatest base stealers of all time?

[NiceDocter]

To me it’s no contest…… Ty Cobb held the record until 1977 with 892…… including an incredible 54 steals of home!!! No one else even comes close!!

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

To me it’s no contest…… Ty Cobb held the record until 1977 with 892…… including an incredible 54 steals of home!!! No one else even comes close!!

+1 and why no mention at all of Maury Wills since OP?

[bk400]

Perhaps this is an unpopular view, but I just can't get it up for pre-war, deep pre-integration player accolades, especially when it comes to something like base running. Ty Cobb may have been a freak of nature in his era, but he was just so much slower than modern era players. Ty Cobb reportedly ran the 100-yard dash in 10.2 seconds, which compares very unfavorably to Vince Coleman at 9.5 seconds and Rickey Henderson at 9.6 or so. I couldn't find Tim Raines's 100-yard dash time, but he ran the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds.

And I don't know how good the catchers were back in Ty Cobb's day, but I'd be willing to bet that they didn't throw to second base nearly as well or as quickly as the guys in the modern era.

Finally, the fact that Ty Cobb could steal home so many times seems to me to be less a testament to his ability and more an indictment of the level of preparation and coaching that persisted during his era.

I know it is unfair to compare across eras, but when we are talking about the best ever, I think there should be a bias toward modern players. The game has become so much more professional and athletically competitive than back in the 1910s and 20s.

[Beercan collector]

I’d go with Tim Raines , wish I could say Davey Lopes one of my favorite players
. Lopes didn’t break into the league until he was 28 and at the age of 40! he stole 47 bases in 51 attempts

[D. Bergin]

I'll break it down into categories like Rickey's career.

Under 30 years old and Over 30 years old.

Best Under 30 - Rock Raines

Best Over 30 - Davey Lopes

Both for their ruthless efficiency.

Very soft spot for Vince Coleman. Those 1st 5-6 years in the league was just chaos on the basepaths.

He wasn't as good at getting on base as Rickey, and that really hurt him as he aged and became less and less valuable as an all-around player...but when he did...man...he was going, whether you liked it or not.

Willie McGee was the much better and more valuable player of the 2 speedsters on those Cardinals teams. Hell, even Ozzie, Tommy Herr and Andy Van Slyke were better players, and more efficient then Vince, but man, was Vince fun to watch when he got on.

Also, feels a little wrong to leave Lou Brock out of the equation, even if a lot of people think he might have been a little over-rated.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Also, feels and little wrong to leave Lou Brock out of the equation, even if a lot of people think he might have been a little over-rated.

How could anyone think Lou Brock was overrated? He was the MVP of the 1967 World Series and won both the Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award and the Sporting News Player of the Year Award in 1974. He hit .304 at the age of forty and had a lifetime batting average of .293.

Was he that bad a fielder or something?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bk400

Ty Cobb may have been a freak of nature in his era....

I know it is unfair to compare across eras....

That's precisely it, and why I think Ty Cobb is a very legitimate candidate for inclusion on a list of the very top base stealers of all time.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

How could anyone think Lou Brock was overrated? He was the MVP of the 1967 World Series and won both the Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award and the Sporting News Player of the Year Award in 1974. He hit .304 at the age of forty and had a lifetime batting average of .293.

Was he that bad a fielder or something?

I never saw him play in person, but analytics don't like him very much. For a non-power guy and leadoff hitter, he had a very respectable batting average, but he struck out waaaay more then he walked.

For perspective he struck out more then Rickey Henderson in about 2100 less plate appearances, while walking almost 1500 less times.

Defensive metrics kind of hate him to. His range factor was very good for most of the 60's, but he either led the league in outfield errors, or was near the top in almost every year he played the outfield. Errors aren't the end all be all when it comes to Outfield play, so I'm guessing he had a weaker arm and extra bases were taken on him, on a regular basis.

Rickey wasn't a great outfielder either, at least from the eye test, but the metrics there favor him much much better, then Lou Brock, and they both played the majority of their careers in Left Field...so there isn't a Center Fielder bias working for either player.

That said, I think Lou Brock is a player you would have loved to have had on your team, one way or another. Whether you think he might have been over-rated, under-rated, or just right.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by jingram058

+1 and why no mention at all of Maury Wills since OP?

So I just reconfirmed that the only Maury Wills cards I have in my Baseball card collection from the 1954-65 period are the 1962 Post Cereal and 1962 Shirriff Coins ones. Looking through my 1951-1990 Topps Baseball Cards book, I was then shocked to learn that Maury Wills' first Topps card wasn't until 1967! Can anyone explain why no Maury Wills' cards were included in the 1959-66 Topps sets?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

So I just reconfirmed that the only Maury Wills cards I have in my Baseball card collection from the 1954-65 period are the 1962 Post Cereal and 1962 Shirriff Coins ones. Looking through my 1951-1990 Topps Baseball Cards book, I was then shocked to learn that Maury Wills' first Topps card wasn't until 1967! Can anyone explain why no Maury Wills' cards were included in the 1969-66 Topps sets?

Contract issue, I presume. He in is 63 Fleer.