The second and third greatest base stealers of all time?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bk400

But if we are selecting the "best ever", we are forced to compare across eras.

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

I think it was Aparicio who revitalized the stolen base in the late 50s, but even he was putting up numbers in the 50s. Wills' season was insane. It's hard to have a conversation about stolen bases without Cobb, Wills and Brock, IMO.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think it was Aparicio who revitalized the stolen base in the late 50s, but even he was putting up numbers in the 50s.

Yes. Luis Aparicio led the American League in stolen bases for nine straight seasons from 1956 to 1964 with annual totals of 21, 28, 29, 56, 51, 53, 31, 40 and 57. As a result he's one of my favourite players from the era. I have his 1959 Topps card:



I also just bought the 1959 "Keystone Combo" card that he shares with Nellie Fox although I've not received it yet. In addition I have his 1962 Canadian Post Cereal card, his 1962 Shirriff coin, his 1963 Salada coin and his 1964 Topps coins.

[Balticfox]

Here's my 1959 "Keystone Combo" card:

[Balticfox]

Though HOFer James "Cool Papa" Bell doesn't appear on any of the Stolen Base record lists, he was reputed to be the fastest player of his time on the base paths:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Bell described the style of play on the occasions when the Negro league players faced white teams in exhibitions: "We played a different kind of baseball than the white teams. We played tricky baseball. We did things they didn't expect. We'd bunt and run in the first inning. Then when they would come in for a bunt we'd hit away. We always crossed them up. We'd run the bases hard and make the fielders throw too quick and make wild throws. We'd fake a steal home and rattle the pitcher into a balk."

Bell was described as being so fast that he once scored from first on a sacrifice bunt. In an exhibition game against white all-stars, Bell is said to have broken for second on a bunt and run with Paige at the plate. By the time the ball reached Paige, Bell was almost to second and seeing the third baseman had broken towards home to field the bunt, rounded the bag. The catcher, Roy Partee of the Boston Red Sox, ran to third to cover the bag and an anticipated return throw from first. To his surprise, Bell rounded third and brushed by him on the way home; pitcher Murry Dickson of the St. Louis Cardinals had not thought to cover home with the catcher moving up the line, and Bell scored standing up.

Sure sounds to me as if Cool Papa Bell played baseball the way it should be played! I may in time add an Ultra Pro page for Cool Papa Bell Topps, Fleer, Donruss and Upper Deck cards to the mini binder I'm envisioning for the cards of base stealers who played outside the 1954-65 years that's my focus for the Baseball cards I collect.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to legend, Paige said of Bell he was so fast he could turn off the lights, get into bed and pull up the covers before the room got dark.

[Touch'EmAll]

Don't know how, but Babe Ruth stole home 10 times. And Lou Gehrig stole home 15 times. Lou Brock zero.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Yes. Luis Aparicio led the American League in stolen bases for nine straight seasons from 1956 to 1964 with annual totals of 21, 28, 29, 56, 51, 53, 31, 40 and 57. As a result he's one of my favourite players from the era.

Bert Campaneris deserves mention here because he was the player who ended Aparicio's streak of being the American League stolen base leader. Campaneris led the AL with stolen base totals of 51, 52, 55, 62, 42 and 52 for the Athletics in 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1970 and 1972 respectively. His career total of 649 stolen bases over nineteen seasons has him at #14 on the lifetime MLB list.

Like Aparicio, Campaneris also used his speed to stretch hits out into triples. Bert Campaneris had 86 career triples compared to Aparicio's 82 over eighteen seasons.

[KJA]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

Are we not counting Billy Hamilton since he was pre 1900? He had over 100 a few times.

[Balticfox]

Oh I'm counting Billy Hamilton alright! He had more than 96 stolen bases a whopping five times:

1889 - 111
1891 - 111
1890 - 102
1894 - 100
1895 - 97

Hamilton's 111 stolen base mark was not exceeded until Lou Brock stole 118 in 1974! Hamilton also set the major league record for runs scored in a season with 198 in 1894.

But I was contending that Ty Cobb belongs up there with the "modern" era players so I was moving only forward in time.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by KJA

Are we not counting Billy Hamilton since he was pre 1900? He had over 100 a few times.

Different rules.

By my calculations, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, Rickey Henderson would have had 166 Stolen Bases in 1982, playing under the same rules as Billy Hamilton.

[D. Bergin]

I thought this was an interesting rule change in 1979.

The criteria for "caught stealing" were fine-tuned in 1979, with a runner being charged with being caught if he is put out while trying to steal, overslides a base (otherwise successfully stolen), or is picked off a base and tries to advance to the next base.[27] It is explicitly not caught stealing to be put out after a wild pitch or passed ball.

This could affect some of the "caught stealing" %'s of different base stealers from different era's. Probably not by a lot, but maybe enough to affect some efficiency ratings slightly.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Different rules.

By my calculations, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, Rickey Henderson would have had 166 Stolen Bases in 1982, playing under the same rules as Billy Hamilton.

Please explain.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Please explain.

In Billy Hamilton's era, you were awarded a "stolen base" if you went from 1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home on a single, 1st to home on a double.

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

I like the initial rule. It's internal mathematical consistency enables every play to be slotted into it's own neat little box. I've always hated all the exceptions to the general rules in baseball.

[steve B]

While I wouldn't put him in the top three, and maybe not even in the top 5, Ill just put the name out there. A friend of mine really like this player in about 1980. I was surprised looking at his stats.

Cesar Cedeno. 550 stolen bases, and a decent string of seasons with 50+ and 53.1 war
And a sort of expected fall off at age 30 He did lead the league in getting caught a couple times, and his last few years hanging on in the big leagues weren't impressive.

But with the third most between 70 and 79 at least deserves a mention.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

In Billy Hamilton's era, you were awarded a "stolen base" if you went from 1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home on a single, 1st to home on a double.

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

I'm pretty sure that taking an extra base (compared to where the batter stopped) counted as a stolen base only during the seasons 1892-1897. Before that, stolen bases were scored more like modern ones, except that they were credited with a stolen base when there was an obvious fielding error on the play, and also when they over-ran the base and were then put out.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I'm pretty sure that taking an extra base (compared to where the batter stopped) counted as a stolen base only during the seasons 1892-1897. Before that, stolen bases were scored more like modern ones, except that they were credited with a stolen base when there was an obvious fielding error on the play, and also when they over-ran the base and were then put out.

Yes, you are correct. The rules did fluctuate a bit.

Also, throwing a monkey wrench into this whole thing. For some reason "Caught Stealing" was not a widely kept track of stat until we were further along into the 20 Century.

Ty Cobb appears to have been a wildly inefficient base stealer when you take into account he's missing 10+ seasons of "caught stealing" statistics from his career line.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

To me it’s no contest…… Ty Cobb held the record until 1977 with 892…… including an incredible 54 steals of home!!! No one else even comes close!!

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

It should also be mentioned that Ty Cobb led the American League in stolen bases a whopping six times - 1907(49), 1909(76), 1911(83), 1915(96), 1916(68) and 1917(55). Cobb was unquestionably a phenomenal base stealer.

(Not my card.)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

It should also be mentioned that Ty Cobb led the American League in stolen bases a whopping six times - 1907(49), 1909(76), 1911(83), 1915(96), 1916(68) and 1917955). Cobb was unquestionably a phenomenal base stealer.

(Not my card.)

I would argue we don't have enough data to state he was phenomenal. He was FREQUENT, but we don't know how effective he was.

[Balticfox]

Hmmmm. Admittedly from the statistics we have he was indeed Caught Stealing much of the time. For example in 1915 when he stole 96 bases he was caught 38 times. Therefore I guess I should have said "fabled" rather than "phenomenal".

Given that he led the American League in Stolen Bases six times, his record of 96 Stolen Bases in 1915 remained unbroken for 47 years and his lifetime record of 897 Stolen Bases wasn't exceeded until 1977 which was a whopping 49 years after his retirement, I'd still argue that Ty Cobb belongs right up there with the most legendary base stealers of all time.

[D. Bergin]

Based on the records we do have, Ty Cobb was a wildly inefficient base stealer by today's standards. Must have been fun to watch though.

Kind of like watching Russell Westbrook play basketball.

When it doesn't work, it's ugly and chaotic and messy and problematic from an analytics standpoint. When it does work, it's beautiful and violent and effective and scary for their opponents.

Rickey has some fun early years where he got picked off and got caught a lot...because everybody in the ballpark knew he was going. He seemed to get more efficient as he got older and the teams he played on got better.

Ty Cobb, not so much. He ran less as he got older, but he was pretty much just "chaos" for his whole career.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Based on the records we do have, Ty Cobb was a wildly inefficient base stealer by today's standards. Must have been fun to watch though.

Kind of like watching Russell Westbrook play basketball.

When it doesn't work, it's ugly and chaotic and messy and problematic from an analytics standpoint. When it does work, it's beautiful and violent and effective and scary for their opponents.

Rickey has some fun early years where he got picked off and got caught a lot...because everybody in the ballpark knew he was going. He seemed to get more efficient as he got older and the teams he played on got better.

Ty Cobb, not so much. He ran less as he got older, but he was pretty much just "chaos" for his whole career.

My impression is that teams attempted the hit-and-run a lot in those days - it's possible that Cobb was often counted caught stealing on failed hit-and-runs.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by John1941

My impression is that teams attempted the hit-and-run a lot in those days - it's possible that Cobb was often counted caught stealing on failed hit-and-runs.

The "hit and run" term/expression has annoyed me ever since I learned what it was meant to describe. Quite simply it's a misnomer since hitting and running is standard baseball. The expression actually refers to run and then (hopefully) hit.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Rickey has some fun early years where he got picked off and got caught a lot...because everybody in the ballpark knew he was going. He seemed to get more efficient as he got older and the teams he played on got better.

Rickey credits Davey Lopes (an all time great from an efficiency standpoint) from changing him from being a runner to being a base stealer. You can literally see in the stats the years they spent together. If he had been as efficient in 1982 as he was in 1983 he'd have stolen 150 bases.