Greatest of all time

[pokerplyr80]

With a couple of threads about the greatest living player, I figured why not start one to see who everyone's top 5, or 10 of all time are. I'll start it out with mine.

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Cobb
4. Williams
5. Mantle

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

With a couple of threads about the greatest living player, I figured why not start one to see who everyone's top 5, or 10 of all time are. I'll start it out with mine.

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Cobb
4. Williams
5. Mantle

Replace Mantle with Gehrig and you have a list.

[Louieman]

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Satchel Paige
4. Bonds
5. Henderson

[Enfuego]

1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Mays
4. Gherig
5. Mantle

[Vintagevault13]

1. Gehrig
2. Ruth
3. Aaron
4. Mays
5. Cobb

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ruth Mays Cobb Williams Wagner

then

Aaron Gehrig Musial Mantle Hornsby

would rate pitchers separately

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

Replace Mantle with Gehrig and you have a list.

In a word, no. Gehrig's stats appear so much better because he played most of his career in the era when it was far and away the easiest time to score runs. No relief specialists, no night games, no west coast travel, smaller gloves, no sliders, etc. In reality, Mantle had a higher percentage of runs created as against league average than Gehrig (though not by a lot), one of, if not THE best yardstick for comparing players of different eras, where the game was played under significantly different conditions. Both, by the way, are among just 8 or so players who created more than 200% of league average runs scored during the eras in which they played.

This is a little like author Roger Kahn saying that Stan Musial was the greatest hitter he ever saw, as if it remained a matter of opinion after the sabermetric revolution. No, Roger, no. While Musial was indeed great, you also saw Ted Williams and Mantle--both were demonstrably, objectively and unequivocally greater.

Best player: Babe Ruth

Best hitter: Ted Williams (his CAREER runs created % vs league average of 250% beat Gehrig's best year, 249% in 1927)

Best pitcher: dead heat--Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson

Regards to all,

Larry

[the 'stache]

I can't mix hitters and pitchers, because the game is so fundamentally different for them. How could you possibly say who is the better player of Walter Johnson or Willie Mays, when there is no statistical basis for doing so? It would be sheer opinion.

This is going to be very difficult.

Hitters:

Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Honus Wagner
Rogers Hornsby
Roberto Clemente
Johnny Bench
Barry Bonds
Rickey Henderson
Napolean Lajoie
Tris Speaker
Tony Gwynn


Pitchers:
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Cy Young
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens
Lefty Grove

List is still evolving. It's impossible for me to limit my positional players to just ten. If I were to look at just the hitting aspect, maybe I could do it. But I can't ignore things like defense and base stealing.

If I am looking at the most complete positional player in history, it's a short list: Willie Mays is at the very top. Bonds is close behind (hard for me to compare because of the PED variable). DiMaggio wasn't a base stealer, but he did everything else very well. Hank Aaron is pretty high on that list. The others would be open to discussion. I think players like Clemente, Bench and Mike Schmidt are too often overlooked, or undervalued, when their complete game is looked at.

Most naturally gifted player? Mickey Mantle, without a doubt in my mind. With a myriad of injuries that would have crippled lesser athletes, what he accomplished as a baseball player was simply phenomenal. When I think of what a healthy Mantle would have done...with that power, that eye, and the legs he had before tearing up his knee for the first time... /shudder. A healthy Mantle could have put up numbers (at Yankee Stadium, no less) that would have never been approached.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You forgot (I hope) Cy Young.

[the 'stache]

Yes. This is becoming an increasingly difficult task.

[CMIZ5290]

Mantle, Ruth, Cobb.....Mix them up however you desire.....

[JoeyFarino]

Ruth
Cobb
Aaron
Gehrig
Mays

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I can't mix hitters and pitchers, because the game is so fundamentally different for them. How could you possibly say who is the better player of Walter Johnson or Willie Mays, when there is no statistical basis for doing so? It would be sheer opinion.

This is going to be very difficult.

Hitters:

Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Honus Wagner

Just missed: Rogers Hornsby (it pains me to not have him in my top ten), Tony Gwynn, Jimmie Foxx, Roberto Clemente, Barry Bonds, Mickey Mantle.

Pitchers:
Walter Johnson
Rogers Hornsby
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Cy Young
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens
Lefty Grove (gimme 11)

That's my initial thoughts. I'm likely to go back and revise these lists.

Bill- I believe you overrated Hornsby as a pitcher.
.
.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Bill- I believe you overrated Hornsby as a pitcher.

Oy, I have really sucked wind in this discussion. First, I omit the only 500 game winner in MLB history from my pitchers list, and now I make Rajah a hurler.

Just a bad list-edit when previewing my post. It occurred to me that I'd forgotten Hornsby, and I stuck him in the wrong place.

Is there a limit to the number of Mulligans we get in one thread?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mathewson an intentional omission?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mathewson an intentional omission?

Mathewson in my opinion was the greatest pitcher of all time. If you disagree with this, he certainly has to be in your top 5.....

[the 'stache]

The more I think about it, the more I think Ken Griffey Jr is being vastly underrated. By age 30, he was a career .299 hitter with 1,063 runs, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI, and a .948 OPS. He also had been named to ten All Star Games, and had won ten Gold Glove Awards.

I would say Bonds was the best player in the NL, and Griffey Jr was the best in the AL. But how we are overlooking Griffey Jr perplexes me. He played the game all out, and I've never heard a single whisper about him and steroids. His body broke down after age 30 because he was always flying into the wall, or diving to make catches. That baseball historians are wondering "what might have been" if Griffey hadn't seen his career derailed by injury...while he still amassed 2,781 hits, 1,662 runs, 524 doubles, 630 home runs, 1,836 RBI, and a .370/.538/.908 slash line...really attests to what a spectacular player he was.

I'll tell you one thing. I don't know if there's ever been a player I enjoyed watching more than the Kid. I never saw DiMaggio play, obviously, but from what I've read about him, and have seen in documentaries, everything he did looked effortless. That's the impression I got with Griffey Jr. He had one of the most beautiful swings I've ever seen. He would just whip that bat around, and the ball would fly into the upper deck. Then, he'd go out, and jump up over the wall in center, and rob somebody of a home run.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The more I think about it, the more I think Ken Griffey Jr is being vastly underrated. By age 30, he was a career .299 hitter with 1,063 runs, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI, and a .948 OPS. He also had been named to ten All Star Games, and had won ten Gold Glove Awards.

I would say Bonds was the best player in the NL, and Griffey Jr was the best in the AL. But how we are overlooking Griffey Jr perplexes me. He played the game all out, and I've never heard a single whisper about him and steroids. His body broke down after age 30 because he was always flying into the wall, or diving to make catches. That baseball historians are wondering "what might have been" if Griffey hadn't seen his career derailed by injury...while he still amassed 2,781 hits, 1,662 runs, 524 doubles, 630 home runs, 1,836 RBI, and a .370/.538/.908 slash line...really attests to what a spectacular player he was.

I'll tell you one thing. I don't know if there's ever been a player I enjoyed watching more than the Kid. I never saw DiMaggio play, obviously, but from what I've read about him, and have seen in documentaries, everything he did looked effortless. That's the impression I got with Griffey Jr. He had one of the most beautiful swings I've ever seen. He would just whip that bat around, and the ball would fly into the upper deck. Then, he'd go out, and jump up over the wall in center, and rob somebody of a home run.

Bill James had an interesting analysis claiming to show that even at Griffey's peak, Craig Biggio (of all people) was better. He and Strawberry had the best swings I have seen.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill James had an interesting analysis claiming to show that even at Griffey's peak, Craig Biggio (of all people) was better. He and Strawberry had the best swings I have seen.

I saw that analysis Peter. My opinion is very simple....Bill James can keep Biggio, and I'll take Griffey at peak value all day long!

[HOF Auto Rookies]

1. Bonds

2. Ruth

3. Mays

4. A-Rod (when he hangs them up)

5. Pedro (gotta have a pitcher )


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