Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The overwhelming majority of sum total value from altered cards ends up in these guys collections though. And if these guys don't care, then I don't see anything ever being done about it.

We can quibble over percentages, but I generally agree. As long as there is a substantial part of the market that is indifferent or oblivious, card doctoring will thrive.

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[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by raulus

If you’re selling that card on eBay (which was the original premise proposed here), then I’m not sure how it gets through the authenticity guarantee program.

Not that they’re going to re-grade it. But it seems like if it’s an obvious fake, then they would catch the reseal.

Maybe, maybe not. I would suspect that even PSA is looking first and foremost for an authentic flip, whether or not it's theirs or someone else's. I've sent ebay orders out to Santa Ana for authentication, and again (as is the trend with authentication and grading currently) the pace at which they move suggests they are spending hardly any time on each item. The purpose of course is to catch it, yes - but just saying I wouldn't be surprised if things are able to slip through.

[jchcollins]

Same discussion we are having here on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkQyI_9VbRo&t=3127s

[tjisonline]

The card was graded poor because it has a pinhole. Everything else is irrelevant.

Would make zero sense financially to soak this card with its pinhole.
I assume it be enjoyed as a nice eye appeal card.

Originally Posted by Fred

Now that the auction is over, I'll post a picture of a correctly graded card and ask:

Would you buy this, break it out, soak it, send it in for grading, and then sell it?

The card is graded a "1" due to the crud on the back. Watching Kurt's videos, I'm sure the crud could be easily removed.


The card has nice centering and could probably come back graded a 3.5 (or better). The price difference could be up to $1K (from the price for a "1").

Worst case, if it came back AUTH due to someone detected the soaking, you could still probably break even on the card because it has very nice visual appeal.

The final hammer (with BP, but no taxes or shipping added) was $900.

Any guesses if we'll see this card cracked, soaked, resubmitted and back to an AH? Probably better to just sell it without the AH this time around.



Attachment 606580

[Fred]

Wow, I had to go back to post 178 to refresh.

I didn't see the pin hole in the card, however, my thought was that the card looks pretty nice beyond the paste at the corners.

If it were cleaned, it could be resubmitted and there's the possibility the TPG misses that "very tiny" pin hole. I wouldn't promote the resubmission in the attempt to get it by the TPG, but I'm sure others might see the potential benefit.

I suppose the next question would bring up debate. If it were soaked and result in no damage to the card, then an assumption is that card would look awesome (front is centered fairly well). Would anybody soak it just to have a nicer looking card (assuming no damage to the card occurs).

For arguements sake (or to alleviate most reasons for a debate), lets say the card was soaked only in water.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Fred

Wow, I had to go back to post 178 to refresh.

I didn't see the pin hole in the card, however, my thought was that the card looks pretty nice beyond the paste at the corners.

If it were cleaned, it could be resubmitted and there's the possibility the TPG misses that "very tiny" pin hole. I wouldn't promote the resubmission in the attempt to get it by the TPG, but I'm sure others might see the potential benefit.

I suppose the next question would bring up debate. If it were soaked and result in no damage to the card, then an assumption is that card would look awesome (front is centered fairly well). Would anybody soak it just to have a nicer looking card (assuming no damage to the card occurs).

For arguements sake (or to alleviate most reasons for a debate), lets say the card was soaked only in water.

Yes, I would absolutely soak a card just to clean it up even though I know it would receive the same technical grade if resubmitted. I've done it countless times.

[tjisonline]

Hello,

For this post, please remember that when I refer to cleaning or soaking it is with 100% distilled water only.

1) I agree. The pinhole is there yet subtle enough where it doesn’t take away from the card. It does go through the back, unfortunately. It’s like looking through a peak / peep hole. Ever watched the 1982 movie, Porky’s? ��.

2a & b) I don’t think anyone with common sense will resubmit this card to a grader w/ a hole in it. It makes zero sense.

Even if you clean the card, it’s still gonna have the hole. It’s not like soaking the card is gonna make the cardboard grow to fill the hole. Additionally, it could be greater as authentic instead of a1 / poor.

Soaking does not always clean a card. it was primarily used 5+ decades ago to remove cards that were taped or glued in scrapbooks. Additionally, some cards cannot be soaked and could be destroyed.

Originally Posted by Fred

Wow, I had to go back to post 178 to refresh.

1) I didn't see the pin hole in the card, however, my thought was that the card looks pretty nice beyond the paste at the corners.

2a) If it were cleaned, it could be resubmitted and there's the possibility the TPG misses that "very tiny" pin hole. I wouldn't promote the resubmission in the attempt to get it by the TPG, but I'm sure others might see the potential benefit.

2b) I suppose the next question would bring up debate. If it were soaked and result in no damage to the card, then an assumption is that card would look awesome (front is centered fairly well). Would anybody soak it just to have a nicer looking card (assuming no damage to the card occurs).

3) For arguements sake (or to alleviate most reasons for a debate), lets say the card was soaked only in water.

[etsmith]

I don't see a problem with using distilled water, but using anything else is probably not a good idea in the long term.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

… Even if you clean the card, it’s still gonna have the hole. It’s not like soaking the card is gonna make the cardboard grow to fill the hole. …

Vintage Card Restoration: Dealing with pinholes on vintage sports cards
https://youtu.be/mxTWkdLyfws?si=v8o3-ONtWRk278Jb


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[campyfan39]

incredible. would have not ever imagined

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Vintage Card Restoration: Dealing with pinholes on vintage sports cards
https://youtu.be/mxTWkdLyfws?si=v8o3-ONtWRk278Jb


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[4815162342]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

incredible. would have not ever imagined

Please note I didn’t post that video as something positive.


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[Fred]

I wonder what would happen if the card was soaked rather than going through the process completed to lessen the size of the pin hole. I wonder if a grader would actually see the hole or if the quick glance would result in a determination it was just an ink imperfection.

You have to admit that for the effort put forth, the results of the "pinhole relief" are impressive. No extra material added. Not sure what's in the solution used, but I'm guessing it probably doesn't have much in the way of chemicals else there'd be possible ink discoloration issues.

I probably wouldn't purchase any cards from Kurt because in the back of your mind you'd be wondering, what is it that I'm missing. In no way am I implying he'd try and pass something off without disclosure. I'm guessing he'd be more than happy to disclose all work done to one of his cardboard patients.

Because I'm posting the before/after pics doesn't imply I'm a fan of card repair (especially trimming). It's an interesting topic and deserves discussion.


K-C_Pinhole repair.jpg

[campyfan39]

Please note that my reaction wasn't intimating I agreed with it per se. I just think the stuff he can do are things that have not even crossed my mind.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Please note I didn’t post that video as something positive.


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[EddieP]

Let’s clarify one thing. Distilled water may not chemically ALTER the DNA of a card, but it sure as hell will structurally alter the card through osmosis and osmotic cell lysis. Soaking a card in water and then pressing it between books is a petri dish for yeast, bacteria and mold which can damage a card.

[Snowman]

Sometimes you can improve a pinhole by using a straw when the card is wet from soaking. The pinhole is still there obviously, but visually it can look a lot better because you suck the broken paper fibers back to where they belong and it fills in the gap.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by EddieP

Let’s clarify one thing. Distilled water may not chemically ALTER the DNA of a card, but it sure as hell will structurally alter the card through osmosis and osmotic cell lysis. Soaking a card in water and then pressing it between books is a petri dish for yeast, bacteria and mold which can damage a card.

That's why you dry them out. Nobody is trapping them in a moist environment. You change the paper towels or napkins out when they get wet. Typically every couple hours at first.

[Leon]

That's a significant decrease in the size of that pinhole.

Originally Posted by Fred

I wonder what would happen if the card was soaked rather than going through the process completed to lessen the size of the pin hole. I wonder if a grader would actually see the hole or if the quick glance would result in a determination it was just an ink imperfection.

You have to admit that for the effort put forth, the results of the "pinhole relief" are impressive. No extra material added. Not sure what's in the solution used, but I'm guessing it probably doesn't have much in the way of chemicals else there'd be possible ink discoloration issues.

I probably wouldn't purchase any cards from Kurt because in the back of your mind you'd be wondering, what is it that I'm missing. In no way am I implying he'd try and pass something off without disclosure. I'm guessing he'd be more than happy to disclose all work done to one of his cardboard patients.

Because I'm posting the before/after pics doesn't imply I'm a fan of card repair (especially trimming). It's an interesting topic and deserves discussion.


Attachment 608589

[4815162342]

Ignoring the shiny card being discussed, I thought this post by PSA’s president was interesting.


https://x.com/rhoge/status/176802857...drPQjLt5o7epiw


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Ignoring the shiny card being discussed, I thought this post by PSA’s president was interesting.


https://x.com/rhoge/status/176802857...drPQjLt5o7epiw


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Their policy is pretty clear. I've been saying this all along, but their website says they will consider a card to be altered if [and only if - emphasis added] it "bears evidence of trimming, recoloring, cleaning, etc".

There is a world of difference between a properly cleaned card and a card that "bears evidence of cleaning". These two things are not the same. They are only concerned about the latter.

If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Their policy is pretty clear. I've been saying this all along, but their website says they will consider a card to be altered if [and only if - emphasis added] it "bears evidence of trimming, recoloring, cleaning, etc".

There is a world of difference between a properly cleaned card and a card that "bears evidence of cleaning". These two things are not the same. They are only concerned about the latter.

If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."

Read his post again and you’ll find he mentioned more than “cleaning.”


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Read his post again and you’ll find he mentioned more than “cleaning.”


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Read my post again and you'll find that I was referring to the verbiage used in their official policy that is published on their website.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Read my post again and you'll find that I was referring to the verbiage used in their official policy that is published on their website.

You said, ‘If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."’

The PSA prez wasn’t only talking about cleaning cards, but also removing dents and creases, fixing corners, etc. with Kurt’s magic card juice.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

So the better someone is at doctoring, that makes it OK. Man has the world changed from the hobby I grew up in.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

You said, ‘If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."’

The PSA prez wasn’t only talking about cleaning cards, but also removing dents and creases, fixing corners, etc. with Kurt’s magic card juice.


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No, he wasn't.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the better someone is at doctoring, that makes it OK. Man has the world changed from the hobby I grew up in.

It’s incredibly sad.


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the better someone is at doctoring, that makes it OK. Man has the world changed from the hobby I grew up in.

Hasn't always been that way though? I would argue the only thing that has changed is social media now puts it in front of everyone's faces. But fixing card flaws is as old as cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the better someone is at doctoring, that makes it OK. Man has the world changed from the hobby I grew up in.

Not really, you are just more aware of it now.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

No, he wasn't.

“PSA does not approve of any chemicals or foreign substances being added to the surface of a card to improve the condition or appearance.”

Removing dents and creases, as well as fixing corners definitely applies here.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Hasn't always been that way though? I would argue the only thing that has changed is social media now puts it in front of everyone's faces. But fixing card flaws is as old as cards.

There is, IMO, much more acceptance of it now, especially if it isn't glaringly obvious. People who are at the top of the hobby now used to be widely regarded as scum, for example.

[Leon]

+1
Hopefully, one just got out of the business and stays out.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is, IMO, much more acceptance of it now, especially if it isn't glaringly obvious. People who are at the top of the hobby now used to be widely regarded as scum, for example.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is, IMO, much more acceptance of it now, especially if it isn't glaringly obvious. People who are at the top of the hobby now used to be widely regarded as scum, for example.

https://youtu.be/4xdnrPas48M?si=_aYa9qQ-cR64f_yy


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[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is, IMO, much more acceptance of it now, especially if it isn't glaringly obvious. People who are at the top of the hobby now used to be widely regarded as scum, for example.

Depends on who you are referring to and who you ask. Lots of "us" feel that lots of "them" are still scum.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

https://youtu.be/4xdnrPas48M?si=_aYa9qQ-cR64f_yy


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Interesting interview.

Obviously Kurt seems pretty focused on not stigmatizing collectors who choose to clean up their cards. Of course, his premise is that the primary motivation for cleaning cards is for a collector to enjoy their stuff.

If I’m interpreting most of the concerns around here correctly, it’s that the primary motivation of cleaning up cards is to make a bunch of money, and be deceptive about it in the process, because no one would buy them if they knew they were cleaned. Or they wouldn’t pay nearly as much for them.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by raulus

Interesting interview.

Obviously Kurt seems pretty focused on not stigmatizing collectors who choose to clean up their cards. Of course, his premise is that the primary motivation for cleaning cards is for a collector to enjoy their stuff.

If I’m interpreting most of the concerns around here correctly, it’s that the primary motivation of cleaning up cards is to make a bunch of money, and be deceptive about it in the process, because no one would buy them if they knew they were cleaned. Or they wouldn’t pay nearly as much for them.

Cleaning, removing dents, removing creases, and fixing corners are all apparently now considered a legitimate way to get one over on the graders and spin straw into gold.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Cleaning, removing dents, removing creases, and fixing corners are all apparently now considered a legitimate way to get one over on the graders and spin straw into gold.


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Yup. Of course one could ask, if it's so legit, why doesn't anyone disclose it when they submit or when they sell.

How long until we hear recoloring is OK because it's just restoring the original color?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yup. Of course one could ask, if it's so legit, why doesn't anyone disclose it when they submit or when they sell.

Absolutely. Put it on the PSGCA submission form. Include it in the auction description.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Absolutely. Put it on the PSGCA submission form. Include it in the auction description.


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Funny how despite all the jive that it's all OK, that never happens.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Absolutely. Put it on the PSGCA submission form. Include it in the auction description.


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I have 100% seen a counterfeit card sent to PSA with a detailed description of how it differed from a normal card get a PSA 9 grade. I have sold cards on this very forum that I listed with the alteration(s) in the description.

It does happen.

Here is a link to one of the auctions. It also calls out an extremely common altered card some known scammers have had a never ending supply of for decades. https://net54baseball.com/showthread...958+hank+aaron

[Musashi]

From the description for lot #1061 in the current Collector Connection auction:

"These are stellar looking cards but it is our opinion that they have all been expertly altered. From tiny color touches to micro trimming..."

I know I've seen alterations disclosed in descriptions by other auction houses as well, but I knew right where to find that example, for obvious reasons.

Brian Russell

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Musashi

From the description for lot #1061 in the current Collector Connection auction:

"These are stellar looking cards but it is our opinion that they have all been expertly altered. From tiny color touches to micro trimming..."

I know I've seen alterations disclosed in descriptions by other auction houses as well, but I knew right where to find that example, for obvious reasons.

Brian Russell

He has by far my favorite item description. Always been a huge fan of how he lists cards in his auctions.

[G1911]

Honest people who come into possession of an altered card sell it as altered and note what appears to have been done. That's not new or rare, there are plenty of examples every day.

Nobody believes one can not do what they wish with their own private property.

The criticism made throughout this thread is the people who alter cards, and then submit and sell them without any disclosure (the part that makes it fraud) of the work they have done or paid others to do. The people altering cards do not disclose it. They know perfectly well why they never disclose it, because honesty doesn't pay out as well as fraud. We all know that X card honestly listed and publicly known as altered will sell for less than X card listed dishonestly and not known to be a doctors work as a clean PSA Y. If it had no effect on value, there would be no reason for our scammers to mask the alterations - the only reason to commit the act is the $$$.

It's not so much accepted in vintage land as it is the pet project of a vocal minority that dodge and dance around the key part of non-disclosure in their justifications for the crime. The crooks used to pay lip service against fraud and try not to get caught, now they just celebrate it. Probably a better strategy in the long run for success, since they care not about even basic ethics.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Honest people who come into possession of an altered card sell it as altered and note what appears to have been done. That's not new or rare, there are plenty of examples every day.

Nobody believes one can not do what they wish with their own private property.

The criticism made throughout this thread is the people who alter cards, and then submit and sell them without any disclosure (the part that makes it fraud) of the work they have done or paid others to do. The people altering cards do not disclose it. They know perfectly well why they never disclose it, because honesty doesn't pay out as well as fraud. We all know that X card honestly listed and publicly known as altered will sell for less than X card listed dishonestly and not known to be a doctors work as a clean PSA Y. If it had no effect on value, there would be no reason for our scammers to mask the alterations - the only reason to commit the act is the $$$.

It's not so much accepted in vintage land as it is the pet project of a vocal minority that dodge and dance around the key part of non-disclosure in their justifications for the crime. The crooks used to pay lip service against fraud and try not to get caught, now they just celebrate it. Probably a better strategy in the long run for success, since they care not about even basic ethics.

I particularly love the circular justification that there is no need to disclose it because it isn't material.

[Lorewalker]

If it is so accepted and so immaterial then why not just tell the world? I know snowman lists a lot of cards for sale. He also openly, to his credit, admits here to cleaning and improving cards. Not sure where he actually draws the line. Anyway, when I look at his ebay listings oddly I never see him disclose any work done...I guess those cards he has listed are not the ones he has worked on.

And I do think with each passing day fewer collectors care what has been done to the card. I imagine a majority of the collectors who read a disclosure that a card was worked on would be discouraged from buying. They see it passed grading so the assumption is that whatever was done must not have been considered improper. The concept of improving cards is more widely accepted in the hobby than it was even a few years ago.

If TPG is not seeing evidence of the improvements, the question is, should they? And if not then is the work just that good or is that work too subtle to be detected. Evidence should not just be applied to sloppy work but if a tree falls in a forest...

[4815162342]

Apparently this was spotted at the Dallas Card Show this past weekend.




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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yup. Of course one could ask, if it's so legit, why doesn't anyone disclose it when they submit or when they sell.

How long until we hear recoloring is OK because it's just restoring the original color?

Not everyone who cleans cards is doing it to make money though. I know a lot of people who regularly clean commons that are worth nothing. The only reason they don't go around announcing it to the world is because we now live in the age of social media and there's no shortage of unemployed hobby clowns with a platform whose sole goal in life is to run around trolling anyone and everyone they disagree with and attempting to get them "canceled", regardless of whether their opinions on the topic matter one bit.

The fact of the matter is that people have been doing this stuff to improve the condition of their cards since the very first cards were ever printed. And when the grading companies arrived at the scene, they all continued to allow it. It's the way it's always been and it's how it will always continue to be. Don't be afraid of the boogeyman. Nothing bad is going to happen to your cards. Half of your collections are made up of cards that someone improved in some way at some point. The idea that this stuff must be stopped or policed somehow is absurd. All these guys like Sports Card Radio, DanTheCardMan, AIH, etc., are the hobby equivalent of the guy with a megaphone and a hand painted sign, standing on a milk crate, preaching at pedestrians in downtown San Francisco. The truth is, nobody else cares. They're just baseball cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not everyone who cleans cards is doing it to make money though. I know a lot of people who regularly clean commons that are worth nothing. The only reason they don't go around announcing it to the world is because we now live in the age of social media and there's no shortage of unemployed hobby clowns with a platform whose sole goal in life is to run around trolling anyone and everyone they disagree with and attempting to get them "canceled", regardless of whether their opinions on the topic matter one bit.

The fact of the matter is that people have been doing this stuff to improve the condition of their cards since the very first cards were ever printed. And when the grading companies arrived at the scene, they all continued to allow it. It's the way it's always been and it's how it will always continue to be. Don't be afraid of the boogeyman. Nothing bad is going to happen to your cards. Half of your collections are made up of cards that someone improved in some way at some point. The idea that this stuff must be stopped or policed somehow is absurd. All these guys like Sports Card Radio, DanTheCardMan, AIH, etc., are the hobby equivalent of the guy with a megaphone and a hand painted sign, standing on a milk crate, preaching at pedestrians in downtown San Francisco. The truth is, nobody else cares. They're just baseball cards.

I assume you are too young to have been in the hobby when I started. I assure you most people did not think that way back then. Not that it was pure, far far from it (many of today's doctoring superstars got their start in those days), but things you think are innocent and immaterial were not regarded as such for the most part. And sure, some people just want to improve the appearance of their own cards. But a huge part of it is done to deceive, for profit.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If it is so accepted and so immaterial then why not just tell the world? I know snowman lists a lot of cards for sale. He also openly, to his credit, admits here to cleaning and improving cards. Not sure where he actually draws the line. Anyway, when I look at his ebay listings oddly I never see him disclose any work done...I guess those cards he has listed are not the ones he has worked on.

And I do think with each passing day fewer collectors care what has been done to the card. I imagine a majority of the collectors who read a disclosure that a card was worked on would be discouraged from buying. They see it passed grading so the assumption is that whatever was done must not have been considered improper. The concept of improving cards is more widely accepted in the hobby than it was even a few years ago.

If TPG is not seeing evidence of the improvements, the question is, should they? And if not then is the work just that good or is that work too subtle to be detected. Evidence should not just be applied to sloppy work but if a tree falls in a forest...

If I'm selling an altered card, I mention it in both the listing title and description. You can look through my sold listings and you'll see plenty of disclosures like "TRIMMED", "CREASED", "PAPER LOSS", etc. Those are alterations, and if I have a card that is altered, I will disclose it. But if I did something to a card as benign as pushing back down a bent corner with my thumb or safely cleaned something off the surface of my card without damaging it, then no, of course I'm not going to advertise it because there's nothing to disclose in that case. If you're interested in the card and ask me point blank, I'll tell you, but I'm not going to advertise it. That's not an alteration and I couldn't care less if a small faction of hobby ultra-purists disagrees with me. This is the main problem. Many of you guys are casting your preferences onto others and making absurd "criminal" accusations about anyone who sees things differently. And with stuff like card cleaning, polishing a modern chrome card, or soaking a vintage card, your viewpoints are in the minority.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not everyone who cleans cards is doing it to make money though. I know a lot of people who regularly clean commons that are worth nothing. The only reason they don't go around announcing it to the world is because we now live in the age of social media and there's no shortage of unemployed hobby clowns with a platform whose sole goal in life is to run around trolling anyone and everyone they disagree with and attempting to get them "canceled", regardless of whether their opinions on the topic matter one bit.



The fact of the matter is that people have been doing this stuff to improve the condition of their cards since the very first cards were ever printed. And when the grading companies arrived at the scene, they all continued to allow it. It's the way it's always been and it's how it will always continue to be. Don't be afraid of the boogeyman. Nothing bad is going to happen to your cards. Half of your collections are made up of cards that someone improved in some way at some point. The idea that this stuff must be stopped or policed somehow is absurd. All these guys like Sports Card Radio, DanTheCardMan, AIH, etc., are the hobby equivalent of the guy with a megaphone and a hand painted sign, standing on a milk crate, preaching at pedestrians in downtown San Francisco. The truth is, nobody else cares. They're just baseball cards.

You and your buddy Jonah. Birds of a feather.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not going to disclose it because there's nothing to disclose strikes me as circular reasoning? There is something that could potentially be disclosed, and you acknowledge there are people who would care, but you've made a judgment not to disclose. So the question is, is it too much effort? Are you worried it might affect the sale price? Something else?