Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by raulus

Interesting interview.

Obviously Kurt seems pretty focused on not stigmatizing collectors who choose to clean up their cards. Of course, his premise is that the primary motivation for cleaning cards is for a collector to enjoy their stuff.

If I’m interpreting most of the concerns around here correctly, it’s that the primary motivation of cleaning up cards is to make a bunch of money, and be deceptive about it in the process, because no one would buy them if they knew they were cleaned. Or they wouldn’t pay nearly as much for them.

Cleaning, removing dents, removing creases, and fixing corners are all apparently now considered a legitimate way to get one over on the graders and spin straw into gold.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Cleaning, removing dents, removing creases, and fixing corners are all apparently now considered a legitimate way to get one over on the graders and spin straw into gold.


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Yup. Of course one could ask, if it's so legit, why doesn't anyone disclose it when they submit or when they sell.

How long until we hear recoloring is OK because it's just restoring the original color?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yup. Of course one could ask, if it's so legit, why doesn't anyone disclose it when they submit or when they sell.

Absolutely. Put it on the PSGCA submission form. Include it in the auction description.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Absolutely. Put it on the PSGCA submission form. Include it in the auction description.


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Funny how despite all the jive that it's all OK, that never happens.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Absolutely. Put it on the PSGCA submission form. Include it in the auction description.


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I have 100% seen a counterfeit card sent to PSA with a detailed description of how it differed from a normal card get a PSA 9 grade. I have sold cards on this very forum that I listed with the alteration(s) in the description.

It does happen.

Here is a link to one of the auctions. It also calls out an extremely common altered card some known scammers have had a never ending supply of for decades. https://net54baseball.com/showthread...958+hank+aaron

[Musashi]

From the description for lot #1061 in the current Collector Connection auction:

"These are stellar looking cards but it is our opinion that they have all been expertly altered. From tiny color touches to micro trimming..."

I know I've seen alterations disclosed in descriptions by other auction houses as well, but I knew right where to find that example, for obvious reasons.

Brian Russell

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Musashi

From the description for lot #1061 in the current Collector Connection auction:

"These are stellar looking cards but it is our opinion that they have all been expertly altered. From tiny color touches to micro trimming..."

I know I've seen alterations disclosed in descriptions by other auction houses as well, but I knew right where to find that example, for obvious reasons.

Brian Russell

He has by far my favorite item description. Always been a huge fan of how he lists cards in his auctions.

[G1911]

Honest people who come into possession of an altered card sell it as altered and note what appears to have been done. That's not new or rare, there are plenty of examples every day.

Nobody believes one can not do what they wish with their own private property.

The criticism made throughout this thread is the people who alter cards, and then submit and sell them without any disclosure (the part that makes it fraud) of the work they have done or paid others to do. The people altering cards do not disclose it. They know perfectly well why they never disclose it, because honesty doesn't pay out as well as fraud. We all know that X card honestly listed and publicly known as altered will sell for less than X card listed dishonestly and not known to be a doctors work as a clean PSA Y. If it had no effect on value, there would be no reason for our scammers to mask the alterations - the only reason to commit the act is the $$$.

It's not so much accepted in vintage land as it is the pet project of a vocal minority that dodge and dance around the key part of non-disclosure in their justifications for the crime. The crooks used to pay lip service against fraud and try not to get caught, now they just celebrate it. Probably a better strategy in the long run for success, since they care not about even basic ethics.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yup. Of course one could ask, if it's so legit, why doesn't anyone disclose it when they submit or when they sell.

How long until we hear recoloring is OK because it's just restoring the original color?

Not everyone who cleans cards is doing it to make money though. I know a lot of people who regularly clean commons that are worth nothing. The only reason they don't go around announcing it to the world is because we now live in the age of social media and there's no shortage of unemployed hobby clowns with a platform whose sole goal in life is to run around trolling anyone and everyone they disagree with and attempting to get them "canceled", regardless of whether their opinions on the topic matter one bit.

The fact of the matter is that people have been doing this stuff to improve the condition of their cards since the very first cards were ever printed. And when the grading companies arrived at the scene, they all continued to allow it. It's the way it's always been and it's how it will always continue to be. Don't be afraid of the boogeyman. Nothing bad is going to happen to your cards. Half of your collections are made up of cards that someone improved in some way at some point. The idea that this stuff must be stopped or policed somehow is absurd. All these guys like Sports Card Radio, DanTheCardMan, AIH, etc., are the hobby equivalent of the guy with a megaphone and a hand painted sign, standing on a milk crate, preaching at pedestrians in downtown San Francisco. The truth is, nobody else cares. They're just baseball cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not everyone who cleans cards is doing it to make money though. I know a lot of people who regularly clean commons that are worth nothing. The only reason they don't go around announcing it to the world is because we now live in the age of social media and there's no shortage of unemployed hobby clowns with a platform whose sole goal in life is to run around trolling anyone and everyone they disagree with and attempting to get them "canceled", regardless of whether their opinions on the topic matter one bit.

The fact of the matter is that people have been doing this stuff to improve the condition of their cards since the very first cards were ever printed. And when the grading companies arrived at the scene, they all continued to allow it. It's the way it's always been and it's how it will always continue to be. Don't be afraid of the boogeyman. Nothing bad is going to happen to your cards. Half of your collections are made up of cards that someone improved in some way at some point. The idea that this stuff must be stopped or policed somehow is absurd. All these guys like Sports Card Radio, DanTheCardMan, AIH, etc., are the hobby equivalent of the guy with a megaphone and a hand painted sign, standing on a milk crate, preaching at pedestrians in downtown San Francisco. The truth is, nobody else cares. They're just baseball cards.

I assume you are too young to have been in the hobby when I started. I assure you most people did not think that way back then. Not that it was pure, far far from it (many of today's doctoring superstars got their start in those days), but things you think are innocent and immaterial were not regarded as such for the most part. And sure, some people just want to improve the appearance of their own cards. But a huge part of it is done to deceive, for profit.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And sure, some people just want to improve the appearance of their own cards. But a huge part of it is done to deceive, for profit.

I don't believe there is any deception going on at all for most improvements. People are simply fixing minor flaws on their cards just like they would fix anything else that they own. I think it's similar to selling a used car. If that car was considered "totaled" by an insurance company, then that's a material fact and it needs to be disclosed, but if it just had a small fender dent and you were able to pop it back out with a suction cup, then there's nothing material to disclose. Obviously, the conversation changes if we're talking about trimming, but Kurt isn't doing stuff like that.

[G1911]

If I pretend words and phrases mean whatever I want them to mean instead of the actual meaning and use circular logic, I can argue literally anything.

We all know the obvious. These sellers do not mention their alterations because they know perfectly well it hurts the value. They will insist otherwise, for the equally obvious reasons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't believe there is any deception going on at all for most improvements. People are simply fixing minor flaws on their cards just like they would fix anything else that they own. I think it's similar to selling a used car. If that car was considered "totaled" by an insurance company, then that's a material fact and it needs to be disclosed, but if it just had a small fender dent and you were able to pop it back out with a suction cup, then there's nothing material to disclose. Obviously, the conversation changes if we're talking about trimming, but Kurt isn't doing stuff like that.

I think you're justifying it, not explaining it? What harm would there be in disclosing, given it's obvious some people do still care? Why not err on the side of full candor, if as you say it's inconsequential it won't affect price.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think you're justifying it, not explaining it? What harm would there be in disclosing, given it's obvious some people do still care? Why not err on the side of full candor, if as you say it's inconsequential it won't affect price.

As I mentioned above, it's just not worth the drama for most people. They're just not interested in battling with these guys on social media who disagree with their viewpoint. They're not trying to be deceptive, they simply think your viewpoint isn't worth acknowledging. They do not see it as an alteration.

Please don't twist this into a political debate, but there's a similar conversation going on in society regarding people who wish to identify as cats (or foxes, furries, dragons, etc.) and who demand that others refer to them as such. There are some who choose to support them and who will refer to them as dragons, and then there are others, who view them as delusional and choose not to participate. Sometimes people just see things differently. And in this case, people who clean their cards simply disagree with your assessment that doing so renders them altered. It's not about deceiving you, it's about completely disregarding your viewpoint.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not everyone who cleans cards is doing it to make money though. I know a lot of people who regularly clean commons that are worth nothing. The only reason they don't go around announcing it to the world is because we now live in the age of social media and there's no shortage of unemployed hobby clowns with a platform whose sole goal in life is to run around trolling anyone and everyone they disagree with and attempting to get them "canceled", regardless of whether their opinions on the topic matter one bit.



The fact of the matter is that people have been doing this stuff to improve the condition of their cards since the very first cards were ever printed. And when the grading companies arrived at the scene, they all continued to allow it. It's the way it's always been and it's how it will always continue to be. Don't be afraid of the boogeyman. Nothing bad is going to happen to your cards. Half of your collections are made up of cards that someone improved in some way at some point. The idea that this stuff must be stopped or policed somehow is absurd. All these guys like Sports Card Radio, DanTheCardMan, AIH, etc., are the hobby equivalent of the guy with a megaphone and a hand painted sign, standing on a milk crate, preaching at pedestrians in downtown San Francisco. The truth is, nobody else cares. They're just baseball cards.

You and your buddy Jonah. Birds of a feather.

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