Card doctoring video

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

….. I agree they have always been a problem, but the failure of law enforcement to do anything about it does to me raise it to a new level of concern…..

What would you like law enforcement to do?

Guy buys oversized card, trims it to an accepted industry size , gets it graded, sells it. Where is the crime?

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

What would you like law enforcement to do?

Guy buys oversized card, trims it to an accepted industry size , gets it graded, sells it. Where is the crime?

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

The "experts" at the grading company did.
If you think this is acceptable....

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

Or a car with a turned back odometer, without saying whether it had been turned back or not. Nope, no crime there.

[Snowman]

Stealing a bike is a crime though. Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer is also a crime. Trimming a baseball card is not. It's just a shitty thing to do because the majority of people in this hobby have decided that they don't like it. I don't think these comparisons are equivalent.

If the hobby majority suddenly changed its mind tomorrow by shrugging their shoulders and accepting the fact that most trimming is undetectable and therefore not worth worrying about, then there wouldn't even be an argument at all for charging someone with a crime. There's a fine line between someone leeching off of an industry by exploiting a loophole in the system and someone committing an actual crime, even if that leeching behavior is viewed as scummy and unethical. I've been saying since the beginning that trimming cards for profit falls under the scummy and unethical behavior bucket, but that doesn't make it a crime. It is not against the law to profit from being a scumbag, as evidenced by the fact that over priced magazine sales scammers still come to our doors every year with completely fabricated sob stories about needing "points" to get them into college.

I also collect rare casino and poker chips. In that hobby, everyone cleans and restores their chips with all sorts of various chemicals and oils. Many also remove the original casino inlays and replace them with new inlays. People even "trim" their chips by running the edges through a lathe to make them new and shiny again with sharp edges. In the comic book world, you can pay CGC to restore your comics. They will remove creases and surface wrinkles for a fee. The only difference I see between these actions and that of trimming cards is the percentage of collectors who give them a green light in their respective hobbies.

Yet, in this hobby, PSA does not disclose if a card was soaked in order to remove glue from the back, nor do any sellers I've ever encountered. Yet that is without question an alteration as well. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a card only to have it show up in a PSA slab with glue residue on the back that wasn't visible from the scans. Same with tape removal. They'll grade a card that has had tape removed despite the fact that someone either soaked the card in a solvent or used a scalpel and a hair dryer to get it off the card.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Stealing a bike is a crime though. Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer is also a crime. Trimming a baseball card is not. It's just a shitty thing to do because the majority of people in this hobby have decided that they don't like it.

This is true.

[JeremyW]

Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer= trimming. To me, at least.

[Exhibitman]

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

I am sure it has been happening for years, and I am equally sure that most people at least of a certain generation -- apparently like yourself -- disapprove of it and would consider the cards altered even if properly sized.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

That describes many many many many dealers from back then to today. I live in a small rural area that has had very few dealers. I have personally seen or heard first hand stories about every single one of them "fixing" cards.

It just depends on if they are "friends" with the card fixer or not if you get offended. Seen it on here many times.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

And you imagine that trimmed card isn't being sent in for a grade?

That's cute.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

I think you've touched on why this is such a difficult and nuanced topic with your last sentence, and why many would argue that it isn't as cut and dry as some would like or believe it to be. It may be true that a card's edges are either factory cut or they aren't, but that fact isn't helpful. In the real world, this is generally both unknown and unknowable. It cannot be assumed that a card's edges are factory cut.

This also touches on why PSA does not, and surely cannot, if they wish to remain in business, honor a grade guarantee for cards that do not bare actual observable evidence of trimming regardless of whether or not someone on Blowout believes they've found before and after scans of the card in question.

In the real world, we have to deal with observable evidence and make determinations about the likelihood of a card's edges being factory cut or not. Ultimately, this is what determines a card's market value; whether or not it bares evidence of trimming, not whether or not it has in fact been trimmed. This is true in both directions. You can open a brand new pack of cards and receive one with a botched edge from factory that the TPGs will not grade because the card bares evidence of having been "trimmed" despite the fact that it came that way from the factory. It is not unfair or disingenuous to point out that all cards have been trimmed by a blade.

Unfortunately, what determines a card's actual market value is not whether or not it has a factory edge, but rather whether or not its edges appear "correct". This is why some factory cut cards get rejected and why many trimmed cards do not. A card's edge looks "trimmed" or "wrong" when it looks botched, either by an amateur trimmer or by a factory mishap. The idea that all factory edges look a particular way and that all trimmed edges look a different way is simply not true, and one that is born out of ignorance. It is also not true that factory cut cards measure 2.5" x 3.5" and that trimmed cards are by definition smaller than that. Again, ignorance and faulty assumptions beget that belief.

When one of these professional trimmers trims a card, and that card still measures within spec, the resulting card does not have a loss of value on the open market because it does not bare any actual evidence of trimming (i.e., the edges look correct), and the actualized market values are based entirely on what can be observed, not on that which is unknowable. This is also why PSA rejects grade guarantees for a lot of these cards that get called out on Blowout and sent back in for review. They simply bare no physical evidence of trimming. The edges look correct and the card measures correctly as well. Any buyer of one of these cards could crack it out and resubmit it and receive a numeric grade again from any TPG at any time. They are not actually out any money. It's difficult to make a case for fraud when the buyer's bottom line has not actually been adversely affected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, and the buyer could sell it without detection for full Rolex value, no fraud?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, no fraud?

If you can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that even Rolex themselves cannot detect, then you sir, just made a Rolex.

But again, you're analogy is flawed. You're talking about counterfeiting an item, not restoring one. In this case, a better analogy would be if you had a Rolex with a scratched face and you buffed out the flaw and sold it without telling the buyer that you buffed out a scratch. Perhaps the buyer wouldn't be excited to learn that, but he still has a Rolex and it's still worth every penny that he paid for it. That's not fraud.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, and the buyer could sell it without detection for full Rolex value, no fraud?

I had one of those Psssst guys try and sell me a "Rolex" on the streets of Amsterdam many years ago. I believe he wanted 50 Guilder at the time. It looked to be far from a perfect duplicate. Pretty sure there was fraud involved.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think you've touched on why this is such a difficult and nuanced topic with your last sentence, and why many would argue that it isn't as cut and dry as some would like or believe it to be. It may be true that a card's edges are either factory cut or they aren't, but that fact isn't helpful. In the real world, this is generally both unknown and unknowable. It cannot be assumed that a card's edges are factory cut.

This also touches on why PSA does not, and surely cannot, if they wish to remain in business, honor a grade guarantee for cards that do not bare actual observable evidence of trimming regardless of whether or not someone on Blowout believes they've found before and after scans of the card in question.

In the real world, we have to deal with observable evidence and make determinations about the likelihood of a card's edges being factory cut or not. Ultimately, this is what determines a card's market value; whether or not it bares evidence of trimming, not whether or not it has in fact been trimmed. This is true in both directions. You can open a brand new pack of cards and receive one with a botched edge from factory that the TPGs will not grade because the card bares evidence of having been "trimmed" despite the fact that it came that way from the factory. It is not unfair or disingenuous to point out that all cards have been trimmed by a blade.

Unfortunately, what determines a card's actual market value is not whether or not it has a factory edge, but rather whether or not its edges appear "correct". This is why some factory cut cards get rejected and why many trimmed cards do not. A card's edge looks "trimmed" or "wrong" when it looks botched, either by an amateur trimmer or by a factory mishap. The idea that all factory edges look a particular way and that all trimmed edges look a different way is simply not true, and one that is born out of ignorance. It is also not true that factory cut cards measure 2.5" x 3.5" and that trimmed cards are by definition smaller than that. Again, ignorance and faulty assumptions beget that belief.

When one of these professional trimmers trims a card, and that card still measures within spec, the resulting card does not have a loss of value on the open market because it does not bare any actual evidence of trimming (i.e., the edges look correct), and the actualized market values are based entirely on what can be observed, not on that which is unknowable. This is also why PSA rejects grade guarantees for a lot of these cards that get called out on Blowout and sent back in for review. They simply bare no physical evidence of trimming. The edges look correct and the card measures correctly as well. Any buyer of one of these cards could crack it out and resubmit it and receive a numeric grade again from any TPG at any time. They are not actually out any money. It's difficult to make a case for fraud when the buyer's bottom line has not actually been adversely affected.

Saying that nobody can tell the difference is ignorant.
Now if you said that PSA or SGC or Beckett Can't tell from a cursory 30 second look, that I could agree with.

If you look at the work done by groups and people that actually know what they're doing and take the time to get it right You'll see what's possible.
Do things slip through? Of course, but far less than they do at any grading company.

I may just have to use the method in the video and take good pics of the resulting edge compared to a factory edge. I believe it will be 100% detectable.
The same for his half assed "reglossing" using wax paper. That should be and is entirely detectable if you take any time at all.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Saying that nobody can tell the difference is ignorant.
Now if you said that PSA or SGC or Beckett Can't tell from a cursory 30 second look, that I could agree with.

If you look at the work done by groups and people that actually know what they're doing and take the time to get it right You'll see what's possible.
Do things slip through? Of course, but far less than they do at any grading company.

I may just have to use the method in the video and take good pics of the resulting edge compared to a factory edge. I believe it will be 100% detectable.
The same for his half assed "reglossing" using wax paper. That should be and is entirely detectable if you take any time at all.

I completely agree with this. Yes there are many of us that can spot an alteration from a mile away. Doesn't mean a damn thing in the real world.

The part I made bold is ALL that matters and it is fairly easy to get altered/counterfeit cards in those magic plastic slabs and it HAS been proven countless times.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

What would you like law enforcement to do?

Guy buys oversized card, trims it to an accepted industry size , gets it graded, sells it. Where is the crime?

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

What you just described is a crime. In the scenario, the alterer is required to disclose he altered them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

What you just described is a crime. In the scenario, the alterer is required to disclose he altered them.

Fraud 101 -- intentional nondisclosure/concealment of a material fact, in order to induce a sale at a higher price.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fraud 101 -- intentional nondisclosure/concealment of a material fact, in order to induce a sale at a higher price.

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

I don’t know what you’re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don’t know what you’re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

Then why waste time here talking…? There are a few hundred pages of evidence over on blowout of trimmed cards in holders. Some of those buyers can certainly use your legal expertise.

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

My understanding is that the FBI investigation was not just for trimmed cards, but trimmed cards that somehow were slabbed and given something other than the Scarlet 'A'. If the trimmers were working in cahoots with the TPAs to have them turn the other way on the alterations, then that is another story and something that should be investigated and prosecuted.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Then why waste time here talking…? There are a few hundred pages of evidence over on blowout of trimmed cards in holders. Some of those buyers can certainly use your legal expertise.

Money, sonny. Lawyers don't work for free. Find me someone where I am licensed (CA) who wants to ante up my retainer and pay my fees and I will happily sue any miscreant. PWCC was very well advised. By repaying the complaining parties they headed off the potential charges. Many prosecutors will defer or pass on charges when the alleged miscreant makes restitution. It is a better outcome for the victims. I've been involved with a few cases like that on the civil end of it.

Originally Posted by nwobhm

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

That's true, 100%. Fraud comes into play when that person knowingly sells that trimmed card without disclosing it.

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Bullshit…. Absolute bullshit. If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone.

Ahh, I get it. You're just taking jhe piss with us, right?

[Rascal1010]

I'm not a doctor (of cards), or a lawyer, but my question is who is the person that broke the law? If you have a card in your personal collection that you purchased in a TPG holder and you sell it, but it is later discovered that the card was trimmed, did you commit a crime by simply selling an unknowingly altered card? If it's the unknowing owner of the card that sold it, I fear most collectors that own purchased high graded TPG cards and ever sell them could be criminally prosecuted for committing a crime they didn't even realize was happening. If it was the trimmer who originally trimmed the card, how do you prove who that was, unless they were dumb enough to video themselves trimming the card, I don't see how it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any certain person trimmed a certain card.

I don't foresee anyone ever actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, because it appears that the person who could be convicted in most cases is in reality an innocent person, whereas the true guilty party that has committed a crime, is committing a crime that is virtually impossible to prove. If you extend the guilt to all people that were in the chain of ownership of the card, then you are going to have an awful long list of people and not very many left in the hobby that couldn't be named at some point in a court case.

In my opinion the true crime that was committed was done by the TPG company that gave the card a numerical grade. These companies were providing a service for a fee to detect these altered cards and have truly failed the entire hobby with the service they have provided. I look at one card in particular that I am personally experienced with, the 1968 O-Pee-Chee Billy Williams card. These were all factory mis-cut cards from the factory, not a couple sheets of them, but every single one of them due to their positioning on the sheet and the sheet cutting technology that was used at the time. PSA has however given a numerical graded to a handful of these cards over the years. I have personally seen and looked at a few of these PSA graded cards, and every last one of them is factory mis-cut short, along with every one of the hundreds of raw one's that I have looked at over the last decade. This is a case of PSA failing to do the job they were paid to do.

I'm not sure that the trimming of cards is more rampant in the hobby today than it ever was, the difference today from 1980 is today we have trusted? companies making huge profits off of collectors for doing a sub-par job of detecting these altered cards.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

All those things should also be disclosed. A car with original paint is worth more. Rolex with fully original parts worth more. New physical media in untouched unopened condition is always worth considerably more your examples all suck. I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by glynparson

All those things should also be disclosed. A car with original paint is worth more. Rolex with fully original parts worth more. New physical media in untouched unopened condition is always worth considerably more your examples all suck. I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this could rise to a crime.

A person has a card, alters the card, and then sells the card (take grading out of it). How is this a crime? Unethical, yes, but a crime?

And please don't bring up Maestro. He was not convicted of altering a card (that is a myth).

While I hate this subject as much as other collectors, throwing around the word crime for something that it is not is frustrating.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many times do I have to explain this going all the way back to 2019? I give up. Think whatever you want, ignorance is bliss as they say. And yes, while not the main focus of the case, if you actually read the Mastro indictment (to which he pled guilty) part of it is selling the Wagner without disclosure that it was altered. Not myth, fact.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

No doubt… a lawyer is infallible.

Regardless, I can be convinced that trimming is truly illegal.

Possible to point me in the direction of a trimmer be convicted specifically of card trimming?

Not looking for convoluted TPG, shilling scams.

An actual straightforward case of a guy trimmed a card, didn’t disclose, then sold it for profit….?