Card doctoring video

[Snowman]

Stealing a bike is a crime though. Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer is also a crime. Trimming a baseball card is not. It's just a shitty thing to do because the majority of people in this hobby have decided that they don't like it. I don't think these comparisons are equivalent.

If the hobby majority suddenly changed its mind tomorrow by shrugging their shoulders and accepting the fact that most trimming is undetectable and therefore not worth worrying about, then there wouldn't even be an argument at all for charging someone with a crime. There's a fine line between someone leeching off of an industry by exploiting a loophole in the system and someone committing an actual crime, even if that leeching behavior is viewed as scummy and unethical. I've been saying since the beginning that trimming cards for profit falls under the scummy and unethical behavior bucket, but that doesn't make it a crime. It is not against the law to profit from being a scumbag, as evidenced by the fact that over priced magazine sales scammers still come to our doors every year with completely fabricated sob stories about needing "points" to get them into college.

I also collect rare casino and poker chips. In that hobby, everyone cleans and restores their chips with all sorts of various chemicals and oils. Many also remove the original casino inlays and replace them with new inlays. People even "trim" their chips by running the edges through a lathe to make them new and shiny again with sharp edges. In the comic book world, you can pay CGC to restore your comics. They will remove creases and surface wrinkles for a fee. The only difference I see between these actions and that of trimming cards is the percentage of collectors who give them a green light in their respective hobbies.

Yet, in this hobby, PSA does not disclose if a card was soaked in order to remove glue from the back, nor do any sellers I've ever encountered. Yet that is without question an alteration as well. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a card only to have it show up in a PSA slab with glue residue on the back that wasn't visible from the scans. Same with tape removal. They'll grade a card that has had tape removed despite the fact that someone either soaked the card in a solvent or used a scalpel and a hair dryer to get it off the card.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Stealing a bike is a crime though. Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer is also a crime. Trimming a baseball card is not. It's just a shitty thing to do because the majority of people in this hobby have decided that they don't like it.

This is true.

[JeremyW]

Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer= trimming. To me, at least.

[Exhibitman]

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

The metric is so low....ethics in this industry have always sadly been piss poor to say the least.

[ullmandds]

I agree with the sentiment the trimming is altering and should be disclosed. But I do spend a bit of time over on Facebook and a lot of the younger folks could not care less what has happened to the card on its way to its sacred coffin.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

+1, to this entire post.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

It would appear as though the FBI disagrees with you though. They had all the evidence they could ever need to bring charges against these guys, and yet they chose not to. I don't buy the arguments that it was just too difficult to prove or that it failed on some technicality.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It would appear as though the FBI disagrees with you though. They had all the evidence they could ever need to bring charges against these guys, and yet they chose not to. I don't buy the arguments that it was just too difficult to prove or that it failed on some technicality.

OK let's correct some basic errors here.

If there was no possible crime here they would not have investigated, over a several year period, in the first place. If there were no possible crimes here, Brent's first attorney would not have advised him to cooperate and make restitution. There are definitely possible crimes here namely mail fraud and wire fraud. The problem was not the legal framework but proving it beyond a reasonable doubt with admissible evidence. What evidence do you think they had? The Blowout stuff, great as it is, and powerful as it is in the court of public opinion, is not admissible evidence in a federal court. But we've been there done that on this discussion and I don't have the patience to do it yet again.

And if you don't think the fact that a card is altered is material, such that nondisclosure is fraud, ask yourself, why doesn't anyone in the hobby ever disclose it? As they say in the law, the thing speaks for itself.

Can you imagine a listing by PWCC -- PSA 8 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, trimmed by Gary M. PSA 9 1952 Bowman Stan Musial, recolored. 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan PSA 10, broken out of an 8 holder and corners filed. 1915 Cracker Jack Honus Wagner, PSA 7, whitened.

By the way, the FBI does not bring charges, they investigate crimes. The U.S. Attorney brings charges, or decides not to.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

Bullshit…. Absolute bullshit. If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone.

Just because most card collectors are purists doesn’t mean trimmers should be purists. Fact is high end collectors aren’t purists because they damn well know it’s going on and continue to foolishly pay absurd prices for the trimmed cards.

That said…. I am a purist and dislike trimmed cards…..but when I buy a card if it measures correctly I’m good as long as something isn’t obvious.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

...If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone...

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

Breathtaking….:eek…..….

Show me 1 criminal case where someone has been convicted of card trimming…..