Card doctoring video

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

I am sure it has been happening for years, and I am equally sure that most people at least of a certain generation -- apparently like yourself -- disapprove of it and would consider the cards altered even if properly sized.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

That describes many many many many dealers from back then to today. I live in a small rural area that has had very few dealers. I have personally seen or heard first hand stories about every single one of them "fixing" cards.

It just depends on if they are "friends" with the card fixer or not if you get offended. Seen it on here many times.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

And you imagine that trimmed card isn't being sent in for a grade?

That's cute.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

I think you've touched on why this is such a difficult and nuanced topic with your last sentence, and why many would argue that it isn't as cut and dry as some would like or believe it to be. It may be true that a card's edges are either factory cut or they aren't, but that fact isn't helpful. In the real world, this is generally both unknown and unknowable. It cannot be assumed that a card's edges are factory cut.

This also touches on why PSA does not, and surely cannot, if they wish to remain in business, honor a grade guarantee for cards that do not bare actual observable evidence of trimming regardless of whether or not someone on Blowout believes they've found before and after scans of the card in question.

In the real world, we have to deal with observable evidence and make determinations about the likelihood of a card's edges being factory cut or not. Ultimately, this is what determines a card's market value; whether or not it bares evidence of trimming, not whether or not it has in fact been trimmed. This is true in both directions. You can open a brand new pack of cards and receive one with a botched edge from factory that the TPGs will not grade because the card bares evidence of having been "trimmed" despite the fact that it came that way from the factory. It is not unfair or disingenuous to point out that all cards have been trimmed by a blade.

Unfortunately, what determines a card's actual market value is not whether or not it has a factory edge, but rather whether or not its edges appear "correct". This is why some factory cut cards get rejected and why many trimmed cards do not. A card's edge looks "trimmed" or "wrong" when it looks botched, either by an amateur trimmer or by a factory mishap. The idea that all factory edges look a particular way and that all trimmed edges look a different way is simply not true, and one that is born out of ignorance. It is also not true that factory cut cards measure 2.5" x 3.5" and that trimmed cards are by definition smaller than that. Again, ignorance and faulty assumptions beget that belief.

When one of these professional trimmers trims a card, and that card still measures within spec, the resulting card does not have a loss of value on the open market because it does not bare any actual evidence of trimming (i.e., the edges look correct), and the actualized market values are based entirely on what can be observed, not on that which is unknowable. This is also why PSA rejects grade guarantees for a lot of these cards that get called out on Blowout and sent back in for review. They simply bare no physical evidence of trimming. The edges look correct and the card measures correctly as well. Any buyer of one of these cards could crack it out and resubmit it and receive a numeric grade again from any TPG at any time. They are not actually out any money. It's difficult to make a case for fraud when the buyer's bottom line has not actually been adversely affected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, and the buyer could sell it without detection for full Rolex value, no fraud?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, no fraud?

If you can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that even Rolex themselves cannot detect, then you sir, just made a Rolex.

But again, you're analogy is flawed. You're talking about counterfeiting an item, not restoring one. In this case, a better analogy would be if you had a Rolex with a scratched face and you buffed out the flaw and sold it without telling the buyer that you buffed out a scratch. Perhaps the buyer wouldn't be excited to learn that, but he still has a Rolex and it's still worth every penny that he paid for it. That's not fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that even Rolex themselves cannot detect, then you sir, just made a Rolex.

I disagree. You've made a very good fake.

[Snowman]

It looks like Evan Mathis is back for round 2. This time with a mountain of uncut sheets...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CryXzL0g1_d/?hl=en

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It looks like Evan Mathis is back for round 2. This time with a mountain of uncut sheets...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CryXzL0g1_d/?hl=en

What do you suppose is his motivation for posting these videos?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It looks like Evan Mathis is back for round 2. This time with a mountain of uncut sheets...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CryXzL0g1_d/?hl=en

Oh my.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that even Rolex themselves cannot detect, then you sir, just made a Rolex.

But again, you're analogy is flawed. You're talking about counterfeiting an item, not restoring one. In this case, a better analogy would be if you had a Rolex with a scratched face and you buffed out the flaw and sold it without telling the buyer that you buffed out a scratch. Perhaps the buyer wouldn't be excited to learn that, but he still has a Rolex and it's still worth every penny that he paid for it. That's not fraud.

You're assuming your conclusion by saying it's still worth every penny. Suppose in fact a watch with a repaired flaw isn't quite as valuable as one that is original and unflawed. What then?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, and the buyer could sell it without detection for full Rolex value, no fraud?

I had one of those Psssst guys try and sell me a "Rolex" on the streets of Amsterdam many years ago. I believe he wanted 50 Guilder at the time. It looked to be far from a perfect duplicate. Pretty sure there was fraud involved.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think you've touched on why this is such a difficult and nuanced topic with your last sentence, and why many would argue that it isn't as cut and dry as some would like or believe it to be. It may be true that a card's edges are either factory cut or they aren't, but that fact isn't helpful. In the real world, this is generally both unknown and unknowable. It cannot be assumed that a card's edges are factory cut.

This also touches on why PSA does not, and surely cannot, if they wish to remain in business, honor a grade guarantee for cards that do not bare actual observable evidence of trimming regardless of whether or not someone on Blowout believes they've found before and after scans of the card in question.

In the real world, we have to deal with observable evidence and make determinations about the likelihood of a card's edges being factory cut or not. Ultimately, this is what determines a card's market value; whether or not it bares evidence of trimming, not whether or not it has in fact been trimmed. This is true in both directions. You can open a brand new pack of cards and receive one with a botched edge from factory that the TPGs will not grade because the card bares evidence of having been "trimmed" despite the fact that it came that way from the factory. It is not unfair or disingenuous to point out that all cards have been trimmed by a blade.

Unfortunately, what determines a card's actual market value is not whether or not it has a factory edge, but rather whether or not its edges appear "correct". This is why some factory cut cards get rejected and why many trimmed cards do not. A card's edge looks "trimmed" or "wrong" when it looks botched, either by an amateur trimmer or by a factory mishap. The idea that all factory edges look a particular way and that all trimmed edges look a different way is simply not true, and one that is born out of ignorance. It is also not true that factory cut cards measure 2.5" x 3.5" and that trimmed cards are by definition smaller than that. Again, ignorance and faulty assumptions beget that belief.

When one of these professional trimmers trims a card, and that card still measures within spec, the resulting card does not have a loss of value on the open market because it does not bare any actual evidence of trimming (i.e., the edges look correct), and the actualized market values are based entirely on what can be observed, not on that which is unknowable. This is also why PSA rejects grade guarantees for a lot of these cards that get called out on Blowout and sent back in for review. They simply bare no physical evidence of trimming. The edges look correct and the card measures correctly as well. Any buyer of one of these cards could crack it out and resubmit it and receive a numeric grade again from any TPG at any time. They are not actually out any money. It's difficult to make a case for fraud when the buyer's bottom line has not actually been adversely affected.

Saying that nobody can tell the difference is ignorant.
Now if you said that PSA or SGC or Beckett Can't tell from a cursory 30 second look, that I could agree with.

If you look at the work done by groups and people that actually know what they're doing and take the time to get it right You'll see what's possible.
Do things slip through? Of course, but far less than they do at any grading company.

I may just have to use the method in the video and take good pics of the resulting edge compared to a factory edge. I believe it will be 100% detectable.
The same for his half assed "reglossing" using wax paper. That should be and is entirely detectable if you take any time at all.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Saying that nobody can tell the difference is ignorant.
Now if you said that PSA or SGC or Beckett Can't tell from a cursory 30 second look, that I could agree with.

If you look at the work done by groups and people that actually know what they're doing and take the time to get it right You'll see what's possible.
Do things slip through? Of course, but far less than they do at any grading company.

I may just have to use the method in the video and take good pics of the resulting edge compared to a factory edge. I believe it will be 100% detectable.
The same for his half assed "reglossing" using wax paper. That should be and is entirely detectable if you take any time at all.

I completely agree with this. Yes there are many of us that can spot an alteration from a mile away. Doesn't mean a damn thing in the real world.

The part I made bold is ALL that matters and it is fairly easy to get altered/counterfeit cards in those magic plastic slabs and it HAS been proven countless times.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I completely agree with this. Yes there are many of us that can spot an alteration from a mile away. Doesn't mean a damn thing in the real world.

The part I made bold is ALL that matters and it is fairly easy to get altered/counterfeit cards in those magic plastic slabs and it HAS been proven countless times.

I will say though that I had two different collectibles that I took to a major international event in 2006. They had an expert dealer giving opinions and maybe value on up to 2 items for free. One of the ones I brought I was very confident in, but wanted to be a bit more sure before sending it in for a cert. The other I really liked when i bought it, but had begun to have serious doubts.
The expert did in fact get them both right in a very short time. (Turned out I was right about both, one very good the other not so much) The good one has a cert now, the altered one is in the "what the heck do I do with it? " box.

Getting the official cert actually took about 3 months, since the process is much more than a cursory glance.

A decade + later, I'm much better at spotting problems, and a whole lot more confident in my own opinions.
But I've seen a display done by the group that does the certs, of loads of bad stuff they've caught. Alterations, repairs, outright fakes, many of them so well done that it's very hard to tell. Which is why they take months.