Card doctoring debacle

[Snapolit1]

I wonder if the card doctoring scandal will spill over somehow to the memorabilia side of things. I am not naive enough to think criminals aren't working in this side of the hobby also, but it seems to me that unique high end pieces of memorabilia with good providence are a solid bet. I am not a signature guy, but high end photos, contracts, trophies etc. seem like pretty good places to be to me.

[JoeDfan]

I collect game used and vintage bats. I have one Joe Torre that failed at PSA, I think Taube said the pine tar wasn't right or something, if I recall.
I also have a Rose S2 index bat that he didn't like the pine tar.

So I am guessing yes, if there is money in it, probably you can doctor it.

Lately, I have seen some (crude) attempts at Hanna Batrites on eBay. I think at least one fooled someone. No doubt they are just going to get better at it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well a certain rapper made nice money on counterfeit trophy balls

[RedsFan1941]

longtime — longer than the past month or so — collectors of memorabilia have known the importance of doing due diligence and not taking items at face value or being lulled by a flowery auction description. long before items in the Halper collection were exposed for not being what they were purported to be did knowledgeable collectors know about the large amount of fakes, doctored and “restored” vintage pieces. so to answer the OP’s question, you’re about 30 years late with it.

[drcy]

I'm sure things are worked on in other areas-- I know photographs are if someone wants me to get into that. However, the difference is grade isn't as integral to value in other areas. A "Mint' isn't valued 5x more than a "Nrmt" photograph or program.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

longtime — longer than the past month or so — collectors of memorabilia have known the importance of doing due diligence and not taking items at face value or being lulled by a flowery auction description. long before items in the Halper collection were exposed for not being what they were purported to be did knowledgeable collectors know about the large amount of fakes, doctored and “restored” vintage pieces. so to answer the OP’s question, you’re about 30 years late with it.

I didn’t suggest there isn’t fraud. I’m sure it is. But as someone said later in the thread, in many areas we aren’t depending on grading companies to make minute or illusory judgment calls to assess whether something is extremely
Valuable as opposed to just valuable. I own a Lou Gehrig contract. Its value both objectively and subjectively to me personally is because it’s a Gehrig contract. Not because someone at PSA said it’s a 9 or a 10. And it came with sufficient providence that I have a very high degree of certainty that it’s not a forged document. It’s authentic and not dependent on someone somewhere behind a curtains opinion as to how good it is.

[RichardSimon]

Don't want to be the grammar doctor here but provenance is the word you have been looking for.
Providence has an entirely different meaning.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Don't want to be the grammar doctor here but provenance is the word you have been looking for.
Providence has an entirely different meaning.

What if it is from Rhode Island's capital

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Don't want to be the grammar doctor here but provenance is the word you have been looking for.
Providence has an entirely different meaning.

I agree. Damm spellcheck.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by JoeDfan

I collect game used and vintage bats. I have one Joe Torre that failed at PSA, I think Taube said the pine tar wasn't right or something, if I recall.
I also have a Rose S2 index bat that he didn't like the pine tar.

So I am guessing yes, if there is money in it, probably you can doctor it.

Lately, I have seen some (crude) attempts at Hanna Batrites on eBay. I think at least one fooled someone. No doubt they are just going to get better at it.

But that isn't doctoring.. Your torre bat was probably used by another player which is common for players to share bats. The Rose index bat is a bat ordered by the team for whoever to use.

[JoeDfan]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

But that isn't doctoring.. Your torre bat was probably used by another player which is common for players to share bats. The Rose index bat is a bat ordered by the team for whoever to use.

Yeah, but both have the correct uniform numbers on the knob? So I just presumed someone must have added the numbers to make it look more legit.
My problem is that I have learned just enough about bats to get myself in trouble sometimes.

The seller of Torre called my attention to it specifically, and I actually thought the bat looked awesome, so I bought it anyway. He wasn't trying to mislead me or anything.
And the Rose guy offered to take it back; but again, it is a pro model Rose, so I kept it. It looks nice, and was a fraction of the cost of a Rose gamer.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Don't want to be the grammar doctor here but provenance is the word you have been looking for.
Providence has an entirely different meaning.

Maybe he is trusting divine Providence to protect him?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Maybe he is trusting divine Providence to protect him?

Or maybe I stupidly tried to post from my phone and the iPhone “corrected” me.

Nowhere as compelling a story as I have no idea the difference between a town in Rhode Island and a word that has had a consistent definition for a few thousand years old. Run with it. Funny stuff.

[RedsFan1941]

don’t see how anyone could doubt you

[frankbmd]

I always think of verifying Mrs. Reagan to get it right.


prove nance

[Snapolit1]

Maybe it’s just me, but if I ran auctions for a living I’d probably avoid going out of my way to make stupid jokes at the expense of other board members. Particularly people who have bought from me in the past. But hey, that’s me.

[benjulmag]

In real estate there are the three "L's" -- location, location, location.

In memorabilia, there are the thee "P's -- provenance, provenance, provenance.

I don't care how well something passes a "photo match" test or a "look-right" test. With memorabilia now in 7-figure territory, counterfeiters have taken their craft to a level that IMO can fool even the best authenticators. If the provenance is not there, then forensic examination is the next choice. Without one of these two, I wouldn't touch any "too-good-to-be-true" item of memorabilia.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe it’s just me, but if I ran auctions for a living I’d probably avoid going out of my way to make stupid jokes at the expense of other board members. Particularly people who have bought from me in the past. But hey, that’s me.

Really didn't think of it as a big deal. It was an obvious typo, someone else had a little fun with it so I went a different way. We all knew what you meant. Sorry it bothered you.

That being said, I'm a person, not a faceless monolith. If you have a problem I will address it. I will also occasionally put my foot in my mouth, think something is funny that others don't, and call things as I see them. May not always be the best business practice, but you'll never have to question my honesty or integrity.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

In real estate there are the three "L's" -- location, location, location.

In memorabilia, there are the thee "P's -- provenance, provenance, provenance.

I don't care how well something passes a "photo match" test or a "look-right" test. With memorabilia now in 7-figure territory, counterfeiters have taken their craft to a level that IMO can fool even the best authenticators. If the provenance is not there, then forensic examination is the next choice. Without one of these two, I wouldn't touch any "too-good-to-be-true" item of memorabilia.

Fair enough, but how do know, for sure and for certain, that the provenance is legit?

[Mark]

Originally Posted by JoeDfan

I collect game used and vintage bats. I have one Joe Torre that failed at PSA, I think Taube said the pine tar wasn't right or something, if I recall.
I also have a Rose S2 index bat that he didn't like the pine tar.

So I am guessing yes, if there is money in it, probably you can doctor it.

Lately, I have seen some (crude) attempts at Hanna Batrites on eBay. I think at least one fooled someone. No doubt they are just going to get better at it.

Regarding bats, I believe that I heard John Taube say, somewhere, that he will use a magnifying lens/ microscope to look at some of the labels and names on bats to look for signs that the bat was stamped many decades ago rather than days ago. So, I have assumed that some people have been producing some pretty convincing, brand new, vintage game used bats.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Mark

Fair enough, but how do know, for sure and for certain, that the provenance is legit?

Documentation of provenance isn't fool proof, and can be forged and faked (Everyone knows many fakes and reprint on eBay come fish stories), and is used in conjunction with, or as supporting evidence of, the physical examination. Good provenance and physical examination support each other.

Sometimes provenance shows that an item has been around for a long time, which is in and of itself helpful information. Obviously, at the least rules it out as a recent creation.

[Leon]

Criminal Peter Nash pleaded the 5th Amendment over 100 times in court, I was told by a reliable source, when asked where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Seems the trail stopped at him, the bad actor. This was years ago. The premise is allegedly he took a good piece, put another good piece with it, and made it into something it wasn't. Kind of like 1+1 = 3. So yes, there is very high level fraud in memorabilia just as there is in cards. Probably not a ton different. Fraud and deceit are common factors. There is almost always a leap of faith and it just depends on how big of a leap someone wants to take. I am not a person who leaps very much.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

Criminal Peter Nash pleaded the 5th Amendment over 100 times in court, I was told by a reliable source, when asked where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Seems the trail stopped at him, the bad actor. This was years ago. The premise is allegedly he took a good piece, put another good piece with it, and made it into something it wasn't. Kind of like 1+1 = 3. So yes, there is very high level fraud in memorabilia just as there is in cards. Probably not a ton different. Fraud and deceit are common factors. There is almost always a leap of faith and it just depends on how big of a leap someone wants to take. I am not a person who leaps very much.

Agreed, quite rampant in memorabilia, autographs and such.

it pales in comparison to what one Brent Mastro has done to the hobby in the way of fraud. And you can see, there are many many others doing the same thing he is doing. It's Fraud, not to mention the undoubted fact that they are not paying their income taxes on those shady gains. I can guaranfuckintee it. They are raking in a shit ton of unclaimed income from their unsuspecting dupes and it is of biblical proportions. All for taking cards out of the stupid plastic containers, dipping in chemicals, painting and trimming, encasing back in plastic and repeating over and over and over again until they finally put their hands in the cookie jar 1 too many times.

It's sickening what they have done really. Common criminals is what they are that found themselves a nice little niche. Punishable by a baseball card blog that few read. Nice work if you have the balls to rip people a new a hole. Brent Mastro is numb to it all. A complete loser dickhead if ever there was one.

Just like you or I found a niche in business but we try to do it with morals and integrity first. Brent Mastro thinks only of himself, is full of shit and his descriptions are nothing more than a fish tale that will make you wet all behind his smoke and mirrors.

People bought in to it and that's what I find fascinating.... How people are so damned moronic at giving their money away to a confirmed Jerkmehoff common criminal

Ruined cards are no more than fake autographs and they have ruined millions, not a few hundred that have been found out. Do the math and you'll see.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Can just collect altered cards i guess.

The cards are still real ..if paying at altered prices i dont see how these cards cant be in the hobby and its buy the card not holder.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Can just collect altered cards i guess.

The cards are still real ..if paying at altered prices i dont see how these cards cant be in the hobby and its buy the card not holder.

Great post Jake. I have been doing that for years. As long as the seller is honest I have no problem buying altered card. I got a 39 Ted Williams rookie cheap because it was altered.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Can just collect altered cards i guess.

The cards are still real ..if paying at altered prices i dont see how these cards cant be in the hobby and its buy the card not holder.

Yes, it all comes down to pricing. Everything has a financial value, but it matters what is the value. If you're pricing everything as altered-- or, at least, as if it isn't not altered--, you have no financial issue. The only practical problem is some rube will price it as a PSA unaltered 7.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by drcy

Yes, it all comes down to pricing. Everything has a financial value, but it matters what is the value. If you're pricing everything as altered-- or, at least, as if it isn't not altered--, you have no financial issue. The only practical problem is some rube will price it as a PSA unaltered 7.

Pricing and honesty. Selling an altered card as a numerically graded card is kinda the problem.

[perezfan]

Almost every segment of Memorabilia already has its fakes, fantasies, and reproduced items. Whether it’s autographs, photos, Pennants, Statues, trophies, engraved relics, bobble heads, contracts, game used items, antique equipment or ad signs, there is always someone ready and willing to pass off bogus items as being old and original.

The only remedy is to know your stuff. And that only comes from years of learning and experience... and making some mistakes along the way (we all have). And for the umpteenth time, there is nothing wrong with restoration as long as it’s properly described and disclosed.

As for the untold number of outright fakes... slimy characters exist wherever the perception of easy money resides. Luckily for Memorabilia collectors, there is no PSA (or other self-proclaimed expert) taking our money in exchange for bogus grading scales and the inability to tell real from fake.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Leon

Criminal Peter Nash pleaded the 5th Amendment over 100 times in court, I was told by a reliable source, when asked where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Seems the trail stopped at him, the bad actor. This was years ago. The premise is allegedly he took a good piece, put another good piece with it, and made it into something it wasn't. Kind of like 1+1 = 3. So yes, there is very high level fraud in memorabilia just as there is in cards. Probably not a ton different. Fraud and deceit are common factors. There is almost always a leap of faith and it just depends on how big of a leap someone wants to take. I am not a person who leaps very much.

Have you seen this article on the Criminal Peter Nash "Nice"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...n-13179601.php

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Have you seen this article on the Criminal Peter Nash "Nice"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...n-13179601.php

https://www.timesunion.com/business/...e-13217564.php

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Pricing and honesty. Selling an altered card as a numerically graded card is kinda the problem.

Well now part of the vocabulary/arsenal for buyers when they see graded cards in bargaining will be 'i think the card was altered' and make the seller re-submit the card for a re grade if he wants the price of the numerical grade or else take less.

yeah, the seller doesnt have to do that or sell the card to that guy but overall prices will fall as less buyers will in the buyer pool , and for a card thats $2000, if the money is already going to be paid if the card proves ok on a regrade then i can see sellers doing that if the purchase price would make them enough profit.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Well now part of the vocabulary/arsenal for buyers when they see graded cards in bargaining will be 'i think the card was altered' and make the seller re-submit the card for a re grade if he wants the price of the numerical grade or else take less.

yeah, the seller doesnt have to do that or sell the card to that guy but overall prices will fall as less buyers will in the buyer pool , and for a card thats $2000, if the money is already going to be paid if the card proves ok on a regrade then i can see sellers doing that if the purchase price would make them enough profit.

With 3, 6, 9 and 12 month turnaround times at the TPGs, there clearly will be buyers who will have a change of heart about the purchase by the time it has been re-graded, but there is a solution.

Just have Brent look at it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

With 3, 6, 9 and 12 month turnaround times at the TPGs, there clearly will be buyers who will have a change of heart about the purchase by the time it has been re-graded, but there is a solution.

Just have Brent look at it.

yeah but money can be held in trust with a third party...again the profit margin has to worth it for the seller

but if you are only being offered a psa 5 offer for a psa 7 card because of concerns of trimming altered debacle and you now have a psa 7 offer price worth thousands more, i can see sellers willing to wait, especially with a shrinking buyer pool who are buying the holder and not the card..

i think the new ebay mantra will change from 'worthy of a bump' to 'confirmed not altered'

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by drcy

Documentation of provenance isn't fool proof, and can be forged and faked (Everyone knows many fakes and reprint on eBay come fish stories), and is used in conjunction with, or as supporting evidence of, the physical examination. Good provenance and physical examination support each other.

Sometimes provenance shows that an item has been around for a long time, which is in and of itself helpful information. Obviously, at the least rules it out as a recent creation.

This to me is the key thing I look to in regard to provenance. The crux of my collection is 19th century. Very few of those items have provenance that take the item back to its point of inception. But if I can go far enough back in time to a point when there would have been no financial incentive to manufacture a counterfeit, I would feel the item is real. Of course accompanying this would be visual examination, though that is a negative test -- it can show something is fake but in and of itself it cannot establish something is real.

A favorite tactic of counterfeiters is, after having created the fake, to induce a prestigious museum to display it for a period of time. If one is selling, say, a Ruth item, it makes for a great story to say the item comes directly from the Babe Ruth museum. But unless one knows the history of how the museum got it and its prior provenance, having been on display at the museum in and of itself means essentially nothing.

To the point that provenance can be faked, that is absolutely correct. There have also been instances where fake items came directly from the descendants of former players. Often they would "seed" the fake in with genuine items in order to induce a prospective purchaser to lower his/her guard. Or the seeding would be done not by the family but by the person who bought genuine items from the family.

Bottom line -- there is a lot of great genuine stuff out there to enjoy, but as the prices of really good stuff continue to rise, one must be more and more careful in deciding whether the item is real.

I think it might have been Jay Miller who used the term "suspended disbelief" to characterize the mind set of a person who sees an opportunity to purchase his/her dream item. The person so badly wants the item to be real that he/she loses his/her ability to objectively evaluate it.

[drcy]

Physical examination sometimes has shown that the provenance is fake. Works both ways.

An example of provenance that doesn't prove but is helpful is a baseball bat that comes from a team or the player's family. It doesn't prove the bat was game used or a even game model, but, in conjunction with physical examination helps show that the bat was game used by the player.

I know with modern (Post 1987?) MLB jerseys, an era when retail and team-issued jerseys can be identical, MEARS won't give a grade above 5 without team or like provenance.

I think photomatching for game used items is good, but am a bit wary of it and don't think it should be used as be all and end all. I think there will be, if there hasn't already been, trickery there. I also think "that the pinstripes match up" is useful information, but don't know that that's the final arbiter. There have been no scientific studies of that area, just assumptions.