Card doctoring video

[trambo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL the hobby is a mess right now. Time to play Zevon's lawyers, guns and money.

I think the hobby has been littered with people altering cards more than just right now. Do you think it's more of a mess these days or just more in our face w/the information we get today versus, say, 30 years ago?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by trambo

I think the hobby has been littered with people altering cards more than just right now. Do you think it's more of a mess these days or just more in our face w/the information we get today versus, say, 30 years ago?

Altered cards are only part of the mess right now. I agree they have always been a problem, but the failure of law enforcement to do anything about it does to me raise it to a new level of concern. But I am also referring to all the craziness of the modern market, the influencers and pumpers, the vaults, the museum pricing on fixed price sites, the social media idiocy, the youtube videos, all of it LOL.

[Johnny630]

I feel every day that goes by brings more uncertainty to collectors' and investors' minds about PWCC’s business practices it’s beginning to pile up massively.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Altered cards are only part of the mess right now. I agree they have always been a problem, but the failure of law enforcement to do anything about it does to me raise it to a new level of concern. But I am also referring to all the craziness of the modern market, the influencers and pumpers, the vaults, the museum pricing on fixed price sites, the social media idiocy, the youtube videos, all of it LOL.

The concern I have for pwcc is how many collectors have moved their cards from their platform. I know several that have and I envision many more will follow. Too many other options out there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

The concern I have for pwcc is how many collectors have moved their cards from their platform. I know several that have and I envision many more will follow. Too many other options out there.

Brent certainly had a first mover advantage but not clear how long he can maintain it in a competitive market.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

….. I agree they have always been a problem, but the failure of law enforcement to do anything about it does to me raise it to a new level of concern…..

What would you like law enforcement to do?

Guy buys oversized card, trims it to an accepted industry size , gets it graded, sells it. Where is the crime?

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

What would you like law enforcement to do?

Guy buys oversized card, trims it to an accepted industry size , gets it graded, sells it. Where is the crime?

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

The "experts" at the grading company did.
If you think this is acceptable....

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

Or a car with a turned back odometer, without saying whether it had been turned back or not. Nope, no crime there.

[Snowman]

Stealing a bike is a crime though. Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer is also a crime. Trimming a baseball card is not. It's just a shitty thing to do because the majority of people in this hobby have decided that they don't like it. I don't think these comparisons are equivalent.

If the hobby majority suddenly changed its mind tomorrow by shrugging their shoulders and accepting the fact that most trimming is undetectable and therefore not worth worrying about, then there wouldn't even be an argument at all for charging someone with a crime. There's a fine line between someone leeching off of an industry by exploiting a loophole in the system and someone committing an actual crime, even if that leeching behavior is viewed as scummy and unethical. I've been saying since the beginning that trimming cards for profit falls under the scummy and unethical behavior bucket, but that doesn't make it a crime. It is not against the law to profit from being a scumbag, as evidenced by the fact that over priced magazine sales scammers still come to our doors every year with completely fabricated sob stories about needing "points" to get them into college.

I also collect rare casino and poker chips. In that hobby, everyone cleans and restores their chips with all sorts of various chemicals and oils. Many also remove the original casino inlays and replace them with new inlays. People even "trim" their chips by running the edges through a lathe to make them new and shiny again with sharp edges. In the comic book world, you can pay CGC to restore your comics. They will remove creases and surface wrinkles for a fee. The only difference I see between these actions and that of trimming cards is the percentage of collectors who give them a green light in their respective hobbies.

Yet, in this hobby, PSA does not disclose if a card was soaked in order to remove glue from the back, nor do any sellers I've ever encountered. Yet that is without question an alteration as well. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a card only to have it show up in a PSA slab with glue residue on the back that wasn't visible from the scans. Same with tape removal. They'll grade a card that has had tape removed despite the fact that someone either soaked the card in a solvent or used a scalpel and a hair dryer to get it off the card.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Stealing a bike is a crime though. Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer is also a crime. Trimming a baseball card is not. It's just a shitty thing to do because the majority of people in this hobby have decided that they don't like it.

This is true.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

And you imagine that trimmed card isn't being sent in for a grade?

That's cute.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

I think you've touched on why this is such a difficult and nuanced topic with your last sentence, and why many would argue that it isn't as cut and dry as some would like or believe it to be. It may be true that a card's edges are either factory cut or they aren't, but that fact isn't helpful. In the real world, this is generally both unknown and unknowable. It cannot be assumed that a card's edges are factory cut.

This also touches on why PSA does not, and surely cannot, if they wish to remain in business, honor a grade guarantee for cards that do not bare actual observable evidence of trimming regardless of whether or not someone on Blowout believes they've found before and after scans of the card in question.

In the real world, we have to deal with observable evidence and make determinations about the likelihood of a card's edges being factory cut or not. Ultimately, this is what determines a card's market value; whether or not it bares evidence of trimming, not whether or not it has in fact been trimmed. This is true in both directions. You can open a brand new pack of cards and receive one with a botched edge from factory that the TPGs will not grade because the card bares evidence of having been "trimmed" despite the fact that it came that way from the factory. It is not unfair or disingenuous to point out that all cards have been trimmed by a blade.

Unfortunately, what determines a card's actual market value is not whether or not it has a factory edge, but rather whether or not its edges appear "correct". This is why some factory cut cards get rejected and why many trimmed cards do not. A card's edge looks "trimmed" or "wrong" when it looks botched, either by an amateur trimmer or by a factory mishap. The idea that all factory edges look a particular way and that all trimmed edges look a different way is simply not true, and one that is born out of ignorance. It is also not true that factory cut cards measure 2.5" x 3.5" and that trimmed cards are by definition smaller than that. Again, ignorance and faulty assumptions beget that belief.

When one of these professional trimmers trims a card, and that card still measures within spec, the resulting card does not have a loss of value on the open market because it does not bare any actual evidence of trimming (i.e., the edges look correct), and the actualized market values are based entirely on what can be observed, not on that which is unknowable. This is also why PSA rejects grade guarantees for a lot of these cards that get called out on Blowout and sent back in for review. They simply bare no physical evidence of trimming. The edges look correct and the card measures correctly as well. Any buyer of one of these cards could crack it out and resubmit it and receive a numeric grade again from any TPG at any time. They are not actually out any money. It's difficult to make a case for fraud when the buyer's bottom line has not actually been adversely affected.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

What would you like law enforcement to do?

Guy buys oversized card, trims it to an accepted industry size , gets it graded, sells it. Where is the crime?

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

What you just described is a crime. In the scenario, the alterer is required to disclose he altered them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

What you just described is a crime. In the scenario, the alterer is required to disclose he altered them.

Fraud 101 -- intentional nondisclosure/concealment of a material fact, in order to induce a sale at a higher price.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fraud 101 -- intentional nondisclosure/concealment of a material fact, in order to induce a sale at a higher price.

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

I don’t know what you’re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

All those things should also be disclosed. A car with original paint is worth more. Rolex with fully original parts worth more. New physical media in untouched unopened condition is always worth considerably more your examples all suck. I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.