Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Man, I've been (justly) accused of a lot of things, but "whining" I don't think has been one of them. Since I start many of these threads, Mark, it would be pretty easy to put me on ignore. Meanwhile, since all I have is a voice but no other power to change things, I'll keep "whining" I guess.

** Not to get too literary or self-aggrandizing about it, but the full quote from Auden is, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie." A brilliant line.

Whining was a poor choice of words and I apologize and I do think spreading the blowout evidence around has real value. Peter, you're one of the last people I would put on ignore as you make numerous good points.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look, I share your frustration that nothing seems to change, and if anything it gets worse. Maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it.

[rjackson44]

Peter is a hobby legend thanks for the article

[Casey2296]

It’s a slow process Peter but keep it up. Are knowledgeable collectors more excited or less excited about the Leaf set before or after the blowout thread?
Unless I’m buying Ted Z’s personally pulled from the pack Leafs I really can’t trust the set anymore. Smart collectors listen to this stuff and will act accordingly. There will be a time when wide honest borders are more valuable than skinny sharp borders.

[benjulmag]

Because of the staggering legal expense to bring a lawsuit and see it through -- a proposition at the end of the day after all appeals have been exhausted easily well into six-figures and likely reaching seven figures -- unless and until slabbed altered cards stop holding their value, who will have the financial motivation to bring such an action? PSA would regard such a lawsuit as an existential threat given its contingent liabilities IMO materially exceed its net worth and the case would probably drag on for years. And even if someone brought such an action as a matter of principal, if PSA acted rationally they would quietly make good on the guaranty, resell the cards on the open market and then return to business as normal.

To me this means that in order for anything constructive to happen from the civil perspective, either a new TPG grading company as I described earlier in this thread needs to enter the fray, or the whining not only needs to continue but needs to escalate. Maybe then in time the press will begin to cover this other side of the hobby, and if so maybe enough trepidation will begin to set in among individuals and funds about whether slabbed cards will hold their value. Then maybe the demand for such cards will begin to fall, and the market forces necessary for such a lawsuit to be rationally and successfully brought will come into play.

A lot of maybes, I agree, but to quote Peter, "maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it."

[Johnny630]

If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.

[jchcollins]

At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable in the way it has with vintage comics? The problem in grading between the two hobbies (at least as I understand it; I don't know a ton about comics besides my lower grade raw collection of vintage MAD magazines...) is that the card hobby is still trying in many cases to put over altered cards as unaltered in numbered, regular slabs. Whereas with comics it's more acceptable for pages to be restored, etc. I get that a trading card is different than a comic in that it's just one piece of ephemera, not multiple pages stapled together. But at some point if this just keeps happening, would it not make sense to treat them the same? I know that "restored" comics go for less than true high grade unaltered, but in our hobby it's kind of the same thing already. A lightly trimmed Mantle card in an A holder that appears NM or better to the naked eye still isn't going to be cheap, if you know what I mean - even if it doesn't sell for the same heights as a truly unaltered PSA 7.

I see both sides of the argument. If we don't complain, "whine" about it, then the skulduggery aspect of this on the card side is unlikely to change. However, it's unlikely to change in reality based on what we have seen over the past 3-5 years anyway, isn't it? So is our only real hangup that we have this deception aspect of grading in our hobby where some other types of collectibles have moved on from that?

Me personally, I'm basically too small time to make a difference. I enjoy mid-to lower grade postwar vintage on a budget, for the most part. I've gotten pissed at graders (mostly SGC) lately, but more to do with their defective slabs and yo-yo pricing models. From here on out, I will likely be focusing mainly on lower grade, raw vintage from sellers that I have already grown to trust online. That way I figure both prices and risk of alteration can remain low. I would agree we are in a very odd place in the hobby with this as an issue right now...

[JK]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.

I've often wondered this myself. I don't collect or submit much in the way of modern cards, but it is nevertheless amazing to me that I have never once submitted a well centered, pack fresh, modern card with four sharp corners and no obvious issues that has received a grade higher than a 9.