Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition.

1 - Why not, it's their fault.

2 - Kinda? Hahahaha.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL.
Oh wait, maybe it's not so funny.
This hobby is a cluster fork.

It takes a massive amount of tolerance, ignorance or denial to buy cards like these after what has been uncovered. If the card is worth real money you almost have to assume it has been messed with.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

15' cj's are in my opinion one of few vintage sets that are more likely to be found in high grade...due to these reasons you stated.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

15' cj's are in my opinion one of few vintage sets that are more likely to be found in high grade...due to these reasons you stated.

The albums had corner hinges I believe? I saw one in person in the 80's. No need to soak, or just kept them in a box.

[bnorth]

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

As far as knowing the names, LOL seriously. When a longtime card doctor got called out on here for selling another member a altered card nobody said shit. People actually blamed PSA because of who the person was. If that isn't proof nobody cares nothing is.

Have a great day and remember it is all for the greater good of the hobby.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

The albums had corner hinges I believe? I saw one in person in the 80's. No need to soak, or just kept them in a box.

That's all well and good, but the fact is these cards are being trimmed on a wholesale scale...............so they literally did not exist in this "pristine" form in the 80's.

I wonder how many cards have actually been trimmed multiple times.

I see the term "crack & resubmit" thrown around on a regular basis.

Unfortunately "crack & trim & resubmit", has become the norm...........and probably has been for much longer then we care to admit.

Card doctors have been trimming cards since PSA came into existence........................I take it back...........they've been trimming cards since cards came into existence...........but they got really good at it, once PSA gave them a huge financial incentive, to get really good at it.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

I respect your opinion and agree with most of what you said.

Yes, the internet created a centralized location to obtain and find things we were unable to before.

Those other types of items you mentioned, didn't become more common. They just became easier to find. Supply began to outstrip demand.

Demand, always outstripped supply, for high grade tobacco/candy/pre-war cards (particularly baseball). The internet era, while helping availability, also accelerated demand. With this demand, more high grade cards were "created".

When I say Hi-grade cards didn't "exist" in the 80's, I was of course guilty of hyperbole. No, this was not supposed to be an absolute statement.

The idea that there are certainly more (lots more) of them out there (which should be a mathematical impossibility), is not strictly anecdotal. It's backed up by literally 1000's (10's, 100's of 1000's ??), that have been exposed, and residing in TPG holders that show us that this card is more respected and higher graded, and with better eye appeal, then it was just a few short years ago.

I understand absolute statements make collectors who believe they are holding onto legitimate high grade cards from the past bristle, and I'm sorry for that. There are always exceptions to the rule.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The list keeps growing.

Yawn.

I guess Mr. Calderon, who clearly knows how to post here (see below), isn't going to this time.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=calderon

It appears that Heritage gets a free pass with a lot of people. If this same thread was about pwcc the post count would be in the hundreds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It appears that Heritage gets a free pass with a lot of people. If this same thread was about pwcc the post count would be in the hundreds.

I don't know Pat, my impression is that people aren't even interested in PWCC any more. Hardly a word about their move to hiding bidder IDs, for example. Or about the complete lack of impact all the Blowout revelations have had on them.

[swarmee]

Or that people posted the ESPN article quoting Jesse Craig and nobody responded back with "Salt of the Earth."

BTW, here are some of the outed trimmers that have booths at the NSCC this year, if it happens:
Johnny Adams Jr Booth Number: #632 #636
Buy Nice Cards.Com Booth Number : #560 Eric Bitz
PWCC Marketplace Booth Number : #2452 #2448 #2353 #2349 Betsy Huigens
Triple sSs Sportscard Booth Number : #525 #624 Mike Skerbe
Metro Sports Cards Booth Number : #2333 Brandon Taing

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

Some people buy old houses, fix them up, and resell them for a tidy profit. It's a win for everyone - someone gets to buy and live in a nice house, property values and aesthetic appeal increase in the neighborhood, tax revenues to the city go up on the higher value basis of the house, lots of tradesmen get paid to do the work, and material suppliers make money selling the stuff that goes into the renovation.

The house may still be marketed as "Early Victorian" or whatever, but it certainly isn't in original condition, and has been significantly altered and cleaned to improve its value.

I own a 1930 Model A Ford. Some people collect them in all original condition, others trick them up a bit. Mine for example is mostly original but has a custom made hardwood floor and some non-original parts. Car collectors can look at it and because of their expertise, they know what they are seeing.

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

I primarily collect game used flannels. Many otherwise nice shirts are out there with alterations. So, I do my homework, I've learned which AHs to trust and which to be very careful with, and which authenticators are good and which aren't (Dave Grob, incidentally, is hands-down my favorite.)

Rather than endless threads with people wringing their hands in angst over altered cards, at what point will it be universally understood that many many cards have been worked on, and that's simply become a major state of the hobby? If altered cards are a problem for someone, they have 3 choices: Learn how to avoid altered cards (knowing they cannot be sure all the time), stop collecting cards, or decide to live with the card hobby as it exists, and not stress about it.

Frankly, I think autographs are far more suspect than cards. With a vintage autograph, every single time, the first question is: Is it real? Generally there is not a definitive answer. Yet, many people collect autographs, accepting that dynamic. Seems to me, card collectors should likewise understand the same risk applies to cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Because the owner of the Victorian House and the Model A that have customizations or work done aren't representing them as all original? It's called fraud.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

Fine, I get it. Fraud is a bad thing. Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?

Let's see some lawsuits. Short of that, let's accept reality and decide, individually or collectively, how to deal with it. Conversations about new, technically advanced authentication is a good example for instance.

If your buddy gets mugged on his way home from work one day, is it productive for him to whine about it constantly? Or would it be best for him to do what he can to help get the mugger locked up, and then figure out how to move on with life.

Look, I totally agree with your post. Already.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Fine, I get it. Fraud is a bad thing. Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?

Let's see some lawsuits. Short of that, let's accept reality and decide, individually or collectively, how to deal with it. Conversations about new, technically advanced authentication is a good example for instance.

If your buddy gets mugged on his way home from work one day, is it productive for him to whine about it constantly? Or would it be best for him to do what he can to help get the mugger locked up, and then figure out how to move on with life.

Look, I totally agree with your post. Already.

Just shut up and do something about it, is a great way for nothing to ever get done about anything. It's essentially gaslighting.

"Whining", as you put it, is a way of passing on information, keeping it in the public consciousness, letting others know what to avoid who don't know that these Cracker Jacks have been trimmed before they were sent to the TPG's.

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Then that mugger kept on robbing your buddy over and over and over again. Identified every time, and nothing is ever done. Short of your buddy going full vigilante, at what point does he shut up and just learn to live with his daily muggings?

At what point do you point your finger at your buddy, tell him to shut his big fat whiny mouth and go "Death Wish", or figure out some way to reform the police force in his locale, and everything systemically wrong with it.............but do it quietly and without disturbing anyone else's sleep, or forum reading habits?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Some people buy old houses...

Among the numerous issues I have with your post, although on a very minimal level I kind of get the point, nobody has ever bought a house that was certified to be in "brand new move in condition" only to walk in and find that the wall to the living room had been sliced off, without complaining about it.

Doug "can't think of a fitting witty nickname" Goodman

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

... Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?...

Hopefully at some point it will, and until then people like you who are ok with your cards being less than perfect as long as the opinion sellers say they are better can stop reading all those new threads.

Or, you can read those threads, then state your opposite of the thread sentiments, and have people like me re-state my sentiments over and over and over.

Doug "my middle name is Dick" Goodman

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Just shut up and do something about it, is a great way for nothing to ever get done about anything. It's essentially gaslighting.

"Whining", as you put it, is a way of passing on information, keeping it in the public consciousness, letting others know what to avoid who don't know that these Cracker Jacks have been trimmed before they were sent to the TPG's.

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Then that mugger kept on robbing your buddy over and over and over again. Identified every time, and nothing is ever done. Short of your buddy going full vigilante, at what point does he shut up and just learn to live with his daily muggings?

At what point do you point your finger at your buddy, tell him to shut his big fat whiny mouth and go "Death Wish", or figure out some way to reform the police force in his locale, and everything systemically wrong with it.............but do it quietly and without disturbing anyone else's sleep, or forum reading habits?

His thoughts and prayers are with the victims...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

His thoughts and prayers are with the victims...

Doug "recently ordained" Goodman.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Your post is thoughtful and I see your point, but here's the distinction: In your analogy, victims are actually going to law enforcement repeatedly, with hard evidence. This is taking action, and if the police don't take it seriously, then action can be escalated to higher officials within the police or government, or to an attorney. Your example would in my opinion be very productive and appropriate.

All I'm saying, really, is this: If you're buying a house, car, or baseball card, look at it closely to know what you're getting. You can educate yourself to improve your chances of getting what you expect, you can decide not to buy, or you can buy on faith, take your chances and accept the outcome. I don't think this statement is controversial because it's the thought process we all go through.

I will readily admit you make a good point about spreading information; the work being done at blowout is definitely important - they are actually documenting evidence, and I do think spreading the word about their findings on this site has value in the sense that maybe somebody will recognize one or more of their high-end cards and finally decide to put together a legal case. Then, perhaps, this massive fraud might begin to be remedied. So in that, I admit there is some potential value in these types of threads.

But since it is abundantly evident that tens of thousands, maybe millions, of altered cards are out there, dealing with that reality seems to make more sense than just complaining about it ad nauseam. In this chat room, people are just conversing with each other, repeating the opinion that fraud is a bad thing, and being surprised/appalled/outraged anew with each new example.

And now I'll take advice I've given others - I will simply ignore these types of threads in the future. After reading dozens of them I pretty much know how they turn out... with people being even more frustrated than before, and little to nothing improving the situation.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Hopefully at some point it will, and until then people like you who are ok with your cards being less than perfect as long as the opinion sellers say they are better can stop reading all those new threads.

This is silly. Understanding the obvious - that a bunch of cards have been altered - does not equate to condoning it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Man, I've been (justly) accused of a lot of things, but "whining" I don't think has been one of them. Since I start many of these threads, Mark, it would be pretty easy to put me on ignore. Meanwhile, since all I have is a voice but no other power to change things, I'll keep "whining" I guess.

** Not to get too literary or self-aggrandizing about it, but the full quote from Auden is, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie." A brilliant line.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Man, I've been (justly) accused of a lot of things, but "whining" I don't think has been one of them. Since I start many of these threads, Mark, it would be pretty easy to put me on ignore. Meanwhile, since all I have is a voice but no other power to change things, I'll keep "whining" I guess.

** Not to get too literary or self-aggrandizing about it, but the full quote from Auden is, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie." A brilliant line.

Whining was a poor choice of words and I apologize and I do think spreading the blowout evidence around has real value. Peter, you're one of the last people I would put on ignore as you make numerous good points.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look, I share your frustration that nothing seems to change, and if anything it gets worse. Maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it.

[rjackson44]

Peter is a hobby legend thanks for the article

[Casey2296]

It’s a slow process Peter but keep it up. Are knowledgeable collectors more excited or less excited about the Leaf set before or after the blowout thread?
Unless I’m buying Ted Z’s personally pulled from the pack Leafs I really can’t trust the set anymore. Smart collectors listen to this stuff and will act accordingly. There will be a time when wide honest borders are more valuable than skinny sharp borders.

[benjulmag]

Because of the staggering legal expense to bring a lawsuit and see it through -- a proposition at the end of the day after all appeals have been exhausted easily well into six-figures and likely reaching seven figures -- unless and until slabbed altered cards stop holding their value, who will have the financial motivation to bring such an action? PSA would regard such a lawsuit as an existential threat given its contingent liabilities IMO materially exceed its net worth and the case would probably drag on for years. And even if someone brought such an action as a matter of principal, if PSA acted rationally they would quietly make good on the guaranty, resell the cards on the open market and then return to business as normal.

To me this means that in order for anything constructive to happen from the civil perspective, either a new TPG grading company as I described earlier in this thread needs to enter the fray, or the whining not only needs to continue but needs to escalate. Maybe then in time the press will begin to cover this other side of the hobby, and if so maybe enough trepidation will begin to set in among individuals and funds about whether slabbed cards will hold their value. Then maybe the demand for such cards will begin to fall, and the market forces necessary for such a lawsuit to be rationally and successfully brought will come into play.

A lot of maybes, I agree, but to quote Peter, "maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it."

[Johnny630]

If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.

[jchcollins]

At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable in the way it has with vintage comics? The problem in grading between the two hobbies (at least as I understand it; I don't know a ton about comics besides my lower grade raw collection of vintage MAD magazines...) is that the card hobby is still trying in many cases to put over altered cards as unaltered in numbered, regular slabs. Whereas with comics it's more acceptable for pages to be restored, etc. I get that a trading card is different than a comic in that it's just one piece of ephemera, not multiple pages stapled together. But at some point if this just keeps happening, would it not make sense to treat them the same? I know that "restored" comics go for less than true high grade unaltered, but in our hobby it's kind of the same thing already. A lightly trimmed Mantle card in an A holder that appears NM or better to the naked eye still isn't going to be cheap, if you know what I mean - even if it doesn't sell for the same heights as a truly unaltered PSA 7.

I see both sides of the argument. If we don't complain, "whine" about it, then the skulduggery aspect of this on the card side is unlikely to change. However, it's unlikely to change in reality based on what we have seen over the past 3-5 years anyway, isn't it? So is our only real hangup that we have this deception aspect of grading in our hobby where some other types of collectibles have moved on from that?

Me personally, I'm basically too small time to make a difference. I enjoy mid-to lower grade postwar vintage on a budget, for the most part. I've gotten pissed at graders (mostly SGC) lately, but more to do with their defective slabs and yo-yo pricing models. From here on out, I will likely be focusing mainly on lower grade, raw vintage from sellers that I have already grown to trust online. That way I figure both prices and risk of alteration can remain low. I would agree we are in a very odd place in the hobby with this as an issue right now...

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Your post is thoughtful and I see your point, but here's the distinction: In your analogy, victims are actually going to law enforcement repeatedly, with hard evidence. This is taking action, and if the police don't take it seriously, then action can be escalated to higher officials within the police or government, or to an attorney. Your example would in my opinion be very productive and appropriate.

All I'm saying, really, is this: If you're buying a house, car, or baseball card, look at it closely to know what you're getting. You can educate yourself to improve your chances of getting what you expect, you can decide not to buy, or you can buy on faith, take your chances and accept the outcome. I don't think this statement is controversial because it's the thought process we all go through.

I will readily admit you make a good point about spreading information; the work being done at blowout is definitely important - they are actually documenting evidence, and I do think spreading the word about their findings on this site has value in the sense that maybe somebody will recognize one or more of their high-end cards and finally decide to put together a legal case. Then, perhaps, this massive fraud might begin to be remedied. So in that, I admit there is some potential value in these types of threads.

But since it is abundantly evident that tens of thousands, maybe millions, of altered cards are out there, dealing with that reality seems to make more sense than just complaining about it ad nauseam. In this chat room, people are just conversing with each other, repeating the opinion that fraud is a bad thing, and being surprised/appalled/outraged anew with each new example.

And now I'll take advice I've given others - I will simply ignore these types of threads in the future. After reading dozens of them I pretty much know how they turn out... with people being even more frustrated than before, and little to nothing improving the situation.

Fair enough and appreciate your response. We are probably closer together on this then we realize.

Just at slightly different stages of "acceptance".

To be honest. I don't have much of a stake in this. I've done little more then dabble in graded cards, and never sent any cards in myself until the recent avalanche of grading craziness hit, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm ever going to see those few cards again, LOL.

I personally think it's too late to put the bullets back in the chamber for the grading companies. The established ones anyways. I've seen chatter that CSG is returning a lot of cards back to submitters, for various reasons. Valid or not. Maybe they will get the reputation of being more picky........at least where authenticity is concerned. Plenty of people already "whining" about the leniency given at the bottom of their number scale...........which I can only shrug my shoulders at, while the others are letting mass numbers of trimmed cards in at the top of the scale, where all the actual money is.

I have a few cards at their facility right now. I might not get those back anytime soon either.

The others either have to keep putting their head in sand, or start establishing a number scale for altered cards in order to satiate the high-enders. 10A, 9A, 8A, etc......

[JK]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.

I've often wondered this myself. I don't collect or submit much in the way of modern cards, but it is nevertheless amazing to me that I have never once submitted a well centered, pack fresh, modern card with four sharp corners and no obvious issues that has received a grade higher than a 9.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JK

I've often wondered this myself. I don't collect or submit much in the way of modern cards, but it is nevertheless amazing to me that I have never once submitted a well centered, pack fresh, modern card with four sharp corners and no obvious issues that has received a grade higher than a 9.

That may not be representative. Last year just out of boredom I busted open a couple of boxes of 2018 product and submitted the better rookie cards, and a friend of mine did the same, and I think we got at least half PSA 10s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So far, according to a guy keeping score.

An accounting so far:

27 trimmed/altered 1915 Cracker Jacks in SGC holders. All of them graded 8, 8.5 , or 9 except for three.

Two cards of Walter Johnson. Three cards of Honus Wagner. Two cards of Christy Mathewson. Two cards of Joe Jackson. One card of Ty Cobb. 15 total members of the Hall of Fame.

Total approximate value if sold today: $1.6 million.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable ...?

... I see both sides of the argument.

Never

and

There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong.

And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Never

and

There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong.

And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing.

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

It would sicken you over the years how many times I've heard I don't what was done to the card if it's in a holder with a number grade.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

And if this continues to be the sole goal, I don't see this as a problem going away anytime soon, if ever. Those who are making noise about this on the regular are in the relative minority when you look at who is buying and stockpiling valuable vintage slabs.

One of those things I think that is certainly not ideal, but reality.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

[jchcollins]

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

But what if it's both?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

When I saw some of those clearly short cards in the D. Thorn thread on Blowout, I was convinced they had a self-service line.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

I’m sure it is, with so many examples it almost has to be both to some extent. But I doubt it’s a 50/50 split. My guess would be 80/20, leaning towards corrupt just based on the large batch groups of altered, graded submittals from BO.

[HexsHeroes]

This thread both makes me chuckle, and shake my head at the same time. Brings up a bittersweet memory. I was about to purchase my first 1914 Cracker Jack Ty Cobb card from an on-line vendor. The card arrived in a sealed top-load holder. But something did not seem quite right. I normally would break the seal to take a closer look at the card, but doing so would have negated the dealer’s clearly stated return privileges. After examining to the best of my ability, I noted that the card had a wavy shape, like potato chip or washboard. First thought was this card had previously been soaked, and air dried. Would explain the waviness. And lack of any notable staining, which I knew was unusual for a 1914 Cracker Jack card. The dealer had made no mention of any such issues in his listing. I initially considered keeping that card, resoaking, and drying in a press to flatten. But I ended up returning that card. Decided any dealer that would try to pass off a defective card was not worth enabling or supporting further.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such...

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the altar of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the alter of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

The "alter" of the slab. Are you a bad speller or is that a brilliant pun?

[sb1]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The "alter" of the slab. Are you a bad speller or is that a brilliant pun?

Damn I hate typos!

Can I still claim it as a brilliant pun?