Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

Fine, I get it. Fraud is a bad thing. Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?

Let's see some lawsuits. Short of that, let's accept reality and decide, individually or collectively, how to deal with it. Conversations about new, technically advanced authentication is a good example for instance.

If your buddy gets mugged on his way home from work one day, is it productive for him to whine about it constantly? Or would it be best for him to do what he can to help get the mugger locked up, and then figure out how to move on with life.

Look, I totally agree with your post. Already.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Fine, I get it. Fraud is a bad thing. Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?

Let's see some lawsuits. Short of that, let's accept reality and decide, individually or collectively, how to deal with it. Conversations about new, technically advanced authentication is a good example for instance.

If your buddy gets mugged on his way home from work one day, is it productive for him to whine about it constantly? Or would it be best for him to do what he can to help get the mugger locked up, and then figure out how to move on with life.

Look, I totally agree with your post. Already.

Just shut up and do something about it, is a great way for nothing to ever get done about anything. It's essentially gaslighting.

"Whining", as you put it, is a way of passing on information, keeping it in the public consciousness, letting others know what to avoid who don't know that these Cracker Jacks have been trimmed before they were sent to the TPG's.

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Then that mugger kept on robbing your buddy over and over and over again. Identified every time, and nothing is ever done. Short of your buddy going full vigilante, at what point does he shut up and just learn to live with his daily muggings?

At what point do you point your finger at your buddy, tell him to shut his big fat whiny mouth and go "Death Wish", or figure out some way to reform the police force in his locale, and everything systemically wrong with it.............but do it quietly and without disturbing anyone else's sleep, or forum reading habits?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Just shut up and do something about it, is a great way for nothing to ever get done about anything. It's essentially gaslighting.

"Whining", as you put it, is a way of passing on information, keeping it in the public consciousness, letting others know what to avoid who don't know that these Cracker Jacks have been trimmed before they were sent to the TPG's.

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Then that mugger kept on robbing your buddy over and over and over again. Identified every time, and nothing is ever done. Short of your buddy going full vigilante, at what point does he shut up and just learn to live with his daily muggings?

At what point do you point your finger at your buddy, tell him to shut his big fat whiny mouth and go "Death Wish", or figure out some way to reform the police force in his locale, and everything systemically wrong with it.............but do it quietly and without disturbing anyone else's sleep, or forum reading habits?

His thoughts and prayers are with the victims...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

His thoughts and prayers are with the victims...

Doug "recently ordained" Goodman.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Your post is thoughtful and I see your point, but here's the distinction: In your analogy, victims are actually going to law enforcement repeatedly, with hard evidence. This is taking action, and if the police don't take it seriously, then action can be escalated to higher officials within the police or government, or to an attorney. Your example would in my opinion be very productive and appropriate.

All I'm saying, really, is this: If you're buying a house, car, or baseball card, look at it closely to know what you're getting. You can educate yourself to improve your chances of getting what you expect, you can decide not to buy, or you can buy on faith, take your chances and accept the outcome. I don't think this statement is controversial because it's the thought process we all go through.

I will readily admit you make a good point about spreading information; the work being done at blowout is definitely important - they are actually documenting evidence, and I do think spreading the word about their findings on this site has value in the sense that maybe somebody will recognize one or more of their high-end cards and finally decide to put together a legal case. Then, perhaps, this massive fraud might begin to be remedied. So in that, I admit there is some potential value in these types of threads.

But since it is abundantly evident that tens of thousands, maybe millions, of altered cards are out there, dealing with that reality seems to make more sense than just complaining about it ad nauseam. In this chat room, people are just conversing with each other, repeating the opinion that fraud is a bad thing, and being surprised/appalled/outraged anew with each new example.

And now I'll take advice I've given others - I will simply ignore these types of threads in the future. After reading dozens of them I pretty much know how they turn out... with people being even more frustrated than before, and little to nothing improving the situation.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Your post is thoughtful and I see your point, but here's the distinction: In your analogy, victims are actually going to law enforcement repeatedly, with hard evidence. This is taking action, and if the police don't take it seriously, then action can be escalated to higher officials within the police or government, or to an attorney. Your example would in my opinion be very productive and appropriate.

All I'm saying, really, is this: If you're buying a house, car, or baseball card, look at it closely to know what you're getting. You can educate yourself to improve your chances of getting what you expect, you can decide not to buy, or you can buy on faith, take your chances and accept the outcome. I don't think this statement is controversial because it's the thought process we all go through.

I will readily admit you make a good point about spreading information; the work being done at blowout is definitely important - they are actually documenting evidence, and I do think spreading the word about their findings on this site has value in the sense that maybe somebody will recognize one or more of their high-end cards and finally decide to put together a legal case. Then, perhaps, this massive fraud might begin to be remedied. So in that, I admit there is some potential value in these types of threads.

But since it is abundantly evident that tens of thousands, maybe millions, of altered cards are out there, dealing with that reality seems to make more sense than just complaining about it ad nauseam. In this chat room, people are just conversing with each other, repeating the opinion that fraud is a bad thing, and being surprised/appalled/outraged anew with each new example.

And now I'll take advice I've given others - I will simply ignore these types of threads in the future. After reading dozens of them I pretty much know how they turn out... with people being even more frustrated than before, and little to nothing improving the situation.

Fair enough and appreciate your response. We are probably closer together on this then we realize.

Just at slightly different stages of "acceptance".

To be honest. I don't have much of a stake in this. I've done little more then dabble in graded cards, and never sent any cards in myself until the recent avalanche of grading craziness hit, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm ever going to see those few cards again, LOL.

I personally think it's too late to put the bullets back in the chamber for the grading companies. The established ones anyways. I've seen chatter that CSG is returning a lot of cards back to submitters, for various reasons. Valid or not. Maybe they will get the reputation of being more picky........at least where authenticity is concerned. Plenty of people already "whining" about the leniency given at the bottom of their number scale...........which I can only shrug my shoulders at, while the others are letting mass numbers of trimmed cards in at the top of the scale, where all the actual money is.

I have a few cards at their facility right now. I might not get those back anytime soon either.

The others either have to keep putting their head in sand, or start establishing a number scale for altered cards in order to satiate the high-enders. 10A, 9A, 8A, etc......

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

... Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?...

Hopefully at some point it will, and until then people like you who are ok with your cards being less than perfect as long as the opinion sellers say they are better can stop reading all those new threads.

Or, you can read those threads, then state your opposite of the thread sentiments, and have people like me re-state my sentiments over and over and over.

Doug "my middle name is Dick" Goodman

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Hopefully at some point it will, and until then people like you who are ok with your cards being less than perfect as long as the opinion sellers say they are better can stop reading all those new threads.

This is silly. Understanding the obvious - that a bunch of cards have been altered - does not equate to condoning it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Man, I've been (justly) accused of a lot of things, but "whining" I don't think has been one of them. Since I start many of these threads, Mark, it would be pretty easy to put me on ignore. Meanwhile, since all I have is a voice but no other power to change things, I'll keep "whining" I guess.

** Not to get too literary or self-aggrandizing about it, but the full quote from Auden is, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie." A brilliant line.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Man, I've been (justly) accused of a lot of things, but "whining" I don't think has been one of them. Since I start many of these threads, Mark, it would be pretty easy to put me on ignore. Meanwhile, since all I have is a voice but no other power to change things, I'll keep "whining" I guess.

** Not to get too literary or self-aggrandizing about it, but the full quote from Auden is, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie." A brilliant line.

Whining was a poor choice of words and I apologize and I do think spreading the blowout evidence around has real value. Peter, you're one of the last people I would put on ignore as you make numerous good points.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look, I share your frustration that nothing seems to change, and if anything it gets worse. Maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it.