Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Never

and

There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong.

And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing.

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

It would sicken you over the years how many times I've heard I don't what was done to the card if it's in a holder with a number grade.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

And if this continues to be the sole goal, I don't see this as a problem going away anytime soon, if ever. Those who are making noise about this on the regular are in the relative minority when you look at who is buying and stockpiling valuable vintage slabs.

One of those things I think that is certainly not ideal, but reality.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

[jchcollins]

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

[sb1]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by sb1

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

I think this is just something we have to deal with then in the post modern hobby. The desire for high grade cards, (even if not truly high grade) in macho numbered holders has proven that it's going to win out thus far over grading integrity in all cases. I see little incentive for that to change if a small group of collectors on BO and N54 are basically the only ones concerned about it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

You would need a whole bunch of those plates for cards, I guess they could be sequentially numbered after the CardMD.

[jchcollins]

So again: Does anyone realistically believe that this problem is ever going away in the card hobby? I don't. Not as long as collectibles continue to be worth real money. The incentives just don't align.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

But what if it's both?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

When I saw some of those clearly short cards in the D. Thorn thread on Blowout, I was convinced they had a self-service line.

[HexsHeroes]

This thread both makes me chuckle, and shake my head at the same time. Brings up a bittersweet memory. I was about to purchase my first 1914 Cracker Jack Ty Cobb card from an on-line vendor. The card arrived in a sealed top-load holder. But something did not seem quite right. I normally would break the seal to take a closer look at the card, but doing so would have negated the dealer’s clearly stated return privileges. After examining to the best of my ability, I noted that the card had a wavy shape, like potato chip or washboard. First thought was this card had previously been soaked, and air dried. Would explain the waviness. And lack of any notable staining, which I knew was unusual for a 1914 Cracker Jack card. The dealer had made no mention of any such issues in his listing. I initially considered keeping that card, resoaking, and drying in a press to flatten. But I ended up returning that card. Decided any dealer that would try to pass off a defective card was not worth enabling or supporting further.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

I’m sure it is, with so many examples it almost has to be both to some extent. But I doubt it’s a 50/50 split. My guess would be 80/20, leaning towards corrupt just based on the large batch groups of altered, graded submittals from BO.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such...

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the altar of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the alter of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

The "alter" of the slab. Are you a bad speller or is that a brilliant pun?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The "alter" of the slab. Are you a bad speller or is that a brilliant pun?

Damn I hate typos!

Can I still claim it as a brilliant pun?