Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

jchcollins · #1 04-19-2021, 09:34 AM

At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable in the way it has with vintage comics? The problem in grading between the two hobbies (at least as I understand it; I don't know a ton about comics besides my lower grade raw collection of vintage MAD magazines...) is that the card hobby is still trying in many cases to put over altered cards as unaltered in numbered, regular slabs. Whereas with comics it's more acceptable for pages to be restored, etc. I get that a trading card is different than a comic in that it's just one piece of ephemera, not multiple pages stapled together. But at some point if this just keeps happening, would it not make sense to treat them the same? I know that "restored" comics go for less than true high grade unaltered, but in our hobby it's kind of the same thing already. A lightly trimmed Mantle card in an A holder that appears NM or better to the naked eye still isn't going to be cheap, if you know what I mean - even if it doesn't sell for the same heights as a truly unaltered PSA 7.

I see both sides of the argument. If we don't complain, "whine" about it, then the skulduggery aspect of this on the card side is unlikely to change. However, it's unlikely to change in reality based on what we have seen over the past 3-5 years anyway, isn't it? So is our only real hangup that we have this deception aspect of grading in our hobby where some other types of collectibles have moved on from that?

Me personally, I'm basically too small time to make a difference. I enjoy mid-to lower grade postwar vintage on a budget, for the most part. I've gotten pissed at graders (mostly SGC) lately, but more to do with their defective slabs and yo-yo pricing models. From here on out, I will likely be focusing mainly on lower grade, raw vintage from sellers that I have already grown to trust online. That way I figure both prices and risk of alteration can remain low. I would agree we are in a very odd place in the hobby with this as an issue right now...

doug.goodman · #2 04-19-2021, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable ...?

... I see both sides of the argument.

Never

and

There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong.

And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing.

jchcollins · #3 04-20-2021, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Never

and

There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong.

And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing.

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

bnorth · #4 04-20-2021, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

Johnny630 · #5 04-20-2021, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

It would sicken you over the years how many times I've heard I don't what was done to the card if it's in a holder with a number grade.

jchcollins · #6 04-20-2021, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

And if this continues to be the sole goal, I don't see this as a problem going away anytime soon, if ever. Those who are making noise about this on the regular are in the relative minority when you look at who is buying and stockpiling valuable vintage slabs.

One of those things I think that is certainly not ideal, but reality.

Arazi4442 · #7 04-20-2021, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

jchcollins · #8 04-20-2021, 10:13 AM

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

sb1 · #9 04-20-2021, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

steve B · #10 04-21-2021, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

perezfan · #11 04-20-2021, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

I posted earlier in this thread but I�ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that�s a different story.

But what if it's both?

Peter_Spaeth · #12 04-20-2021, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

When I saw some of those clearly short cards in the D. Thorn thread on Blowout, I was convinced they had a self-service line.

Arazi4442 · #13 04-20-2021, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

I�m sure it is, with so many examples it almost has to be both to some extent. But I doubt it�s a 50/50 split. My guess would be 80/20, leaning towards corrupt just based on the large batch groups of altered, graded submittals from BO.

doug.goodman · #14 04-20-2021, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such...

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the altar of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

Peter_Spaeth · #15 04-20-2021, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the alter of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

The "alter" of the slab. Are you a bad speller or is that a brilliant pun?

doug.goodman · #16 04-20-2021, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The "alter" of the slab. Are you a bad speller or is that a brilliant pun?

Damn I hate typos!

Can I still claim it as a brilliant pun?

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