Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

1922-1935
1925-1941

They overlapped for 11 seasons. Vance's peak years were 1924-1931. Only one of them was Grove not in the Majors as a full time pitcher too. Grove's peak was 1926-1939; his peak began 2 years after Vance's, overlapped for 6 seasons, and then Grove had a long, productive career that Vance did not. Most of their best seasons overlap, and pretty much all of Vance's productive career except for one season.

Gehrig: 1923-1939
Dimaggio: 1936-1951

Grove started 3 years after Vance, Dimaggio 13 years after Gehrig.

There have to be better arguments than here than denying timelines which are easily available.

Haha ok. Let's talk about time. Grove won 9 ERA titles, 7 in the decade of the 30s. Vance won 3 ERA titles, 1 in the decade of the 30s. Grove won almost 200 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in over 350 of them. Vance won 50 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in 165 games. Dazzy Vance won 7 straight strike out crowns, 0 in the decade of the 30s.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Haha ok. Let's talk about time. Grove won 9 ERA titles, 7 in the decade of the 30s. Vance won 3 ERA titles, 1 in the decade of the 30s. Grove won almost 200 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in over 350 of them. Vance won 50 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in 165 games. Dazzy Vance won 7 straight strike out crowns, 0 in the decade of the 30s.

Vance had a short career, like Koufax (though for very different reasons and in a very different pattern). This is what keeps him form being in the conversation of the best ever.

However, as all of his good years except for 1 overlap with Grove's career, how can we pretend he is not a contemporary?

[packs]

I just explained it to you. Unless you think Grove's prime was in the 20s and not the 30s.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I just explained it to you. Unless you think Grove's prime was in the 20s and not the 30s.

Grove's prime begins in 1926, when he won the ERA crown. It ended in 1939, because he had a very long prime (hence why many of us rank him higher than 5 years of Koufax. Vance is a contemporary, though Vance burned out sooner (because he didn't reach the majors for real until he was 31 years old).

Vance's career is shorter for Grove's. But for almost all of his prime years, he was an exact direct contemporary of Grove. Are we really going to argue that 1924 alone means he is not a contemporary of Grove?

[packs]

Vance was a guy who was still pitching. He was no longer Dazzy Vance. Grove is clearly the pitcher of the 30s, because that is the decade dominated. No one refers to Grove as the pitcher of the 20s. You COULD make an argument that Vance was one of the best pitchers of the 20s. There is no argument for Vance in the 30s. Therefore, prime years are obviously different.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Vance was a guy who was still pitching. He was no longer Dazzy Vance. Grove is clearly the pitcher of the 30s, because that is the decade dominated. No one refers to Grove as the pitcher of the 20s. You COULD make an argument that Vance was one of the best pitchers of the 20s. There is no argument for Vance in the 30s. Therefore, prime years are obviously different.

Except Vance's prime directly overlaps, except for 1 single year. Vance has a short career, and thus Grove's prime extends longer. This does not mean Vance was not Grove's contemporary.

1924: Vance's prime begins, Baltimore won't sell Grove

1925: Grove's career begins, he wins the K crown but it's not actually a great year, Vance leads in Wins, K's, and FIP.

1926: Grove's prime begins in 1926 when he wins the ERA crown. Vance leads the NL in FIP

1927: Grove posts a 132 ERA+ and leads the league in K's. Vance leads the NL in FIP again, and K's as well

1928: Grove leads in FIP, K's and Wins. Vance wins the ERA title and K crown

1929: Grove wins ERA, K's, FIP. Vance has an off year, though well above league average.

1930: Grove wins K crown, ERA title, and Wins with 28. Vance leads the league in ERA and is the best pitcher in the NL again.

1931: Grove has his greatest year, winning 31 games and an ERA over twice as good as the league average, leading in almost everything. Vance has his last prime year, leading in FIP.

1932: Grove dominates the AL again, ERA crown. Vance has his last qualifying year, an average season.

Vance pitches 1933-1935 as partial seasons and hangs up his cleats. Grove continues to dominate as he has one of the longest peak year stretches in baseball history.


This is like saying Bob Gibson and Juan Marichal are not contemporaries of Koufax, because their primes lasted longer than Sandy's who burned out early. Are we going to make this argument too, or is Sandy again treated differently?

The dates are clear, and easily verifiable.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rovele01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...anceda01.shtml