Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess it really comes to who was Grove leading? Hubbell is a worthy adversary (though not in the AL) but after that it becomes a wash of low tier HOFers and non-HOFers. Guys like Lefty Gomez, Red Ruffing, Wes Ferrell, etc.

Koufax was putting up his numbers against Gibson, Marichal, Spahn, Bunning, Drysdale. I feel like for Koufax to still be seen as potentially the best pitcher of his time in addition to the best lefty of all time while pitching among that crowd elevates him over Grove.

Not sure Drysdale or Bunning are any better than Pennock, Ruffing, or Gomez?? Heck, take some of these guys and put them on the old White Sox teams and they're Ted Lyons! But that's for another thread. I'll put Hubbell and Dizzy Dean in the same breath as Marichal, Gibson, and Spahn. And Grove overlapped Dazzy Vance, who was a beast on some of the crappiest teams ever.

What about hitting? You're saying hitting stats looked terrible in Koufax's era because pitching was so awesome, but then named some of the best hitters ever. Which is it?

[packs]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Not sure Drysdale or Bunning are any better than Pennock, Ruffing, or Gomez?? Heck, take some of these guys and put them on the old White Sox teams and they're Ted Lyons! But that's for another thread. I'll put Hubbell and Dizzy Dean in the same breath as Marichal, Gibson, and Spahn. And Grove overlapped Dazzy Vance, who was a beast on some of the crappiest teams ever.

What about hitting? You're saying hitting stats looked terrible in Koufax's era because pitching was so awesome, but then named some of the best hitters ever. Which is it?

Oh come on. I'll give you Bunning, but Drysdale pitched the same number of seasons as Lefty Gomez did and his WAR is almost 30 points higher (not a typo). Give Don some credit for being as good as he was.

I didn't mention any hitters. When Grove won his MVP in 1931 Dazzy Vance was already 40 years old. I would hardly call them contemporaries.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Oh come on. I'll give you Bunning, but Drysdale pitched the same number of season as Lefty Gomez did and his WAR is almost 30 points higher. Give Don some credit for being as good as he was.

I didn't mention any hitters. When Grove won his MVP in 1931 Dazzy Vance was already 40 years old. I would hardly call them contemporaries.

Isn't the Koufax argument that WAR is useless though because it rewards longevity? I think Drysdale was an excellent pitcher and is not an undeserving Hall of Famers, but this argument does contradict the Koufax arguments.

Vance won the ERA crown at 39 and is most famous for being a late bloomer, and 1931 is pretty deep into Grove's career. At age 40, Vance led the league in FIP still.

Vance: 1915, 1918, 1922-1935
Grove: 1925-1941

Vance's real first full year in the majors was 1922 (he pitched 30 innings in 1915, 2 in 1918), Grove's was 1925, 3 years later.

If these are not contemporaries, then Babe Ruth wasn't Lou Gehrig's contemporary either. Mike Trout is not Miguel Cabrera's.

[packs]

Contemporaries in the sense that they were in their primes at the same time. I would not say Gehrig and DiMaggio are contemporaries just because some seasons overlapped. And like I said, Drysdale and Gomez pitched the same number of seasons.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Contemporaries in the sense that they were in their primes at the same time. I would not say Gehrig and DiMaggio are contemporaries just because some seasons overlapped.

1922-1935
1925-1941

They overlapped for 11 seasons. Vance's peak years were 1924-1931. Only one of them was Grove not in the Majors as a full time pitcher too. Grove's peak was 1926-1939; his peak began 2 years after Vance's, overlapped for 6 seasons, and then Grove had a long, productive career that Vance did not. Most of their best seasons overlap, and pretty much all of Vance's productive career except for one season.

Gehrig: 1923-1939
Dimaggio: 1936-1951

Grove started 3 years after Vance, Dimaggio 13 years after Gehrig.

There have to be better arguments than here than denying timelines which are easily available.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

1922-1935
1925-1941

They overlapped for 11 seasons. Vance's peak years were 1924-1931. Only one of them was Grove not in the Majors as a full time pitcher too. Grove's peak was 1926-1939; his peak began 2 years after Vance's, overlapped for 6 seasons, and then Grove had a long, productive career that Vance did not. Most of their best seasons overlap, and pretty much all of Vance's productive career except for one season.

Gehrig: 1923-1939
Dimaggio: 1936-1951

Grove started 3 years after Vance, Dimaggio 13 years after Gehrig.

There have to be better arguments than here than denying timelines which are easily available.

Haha ok. Let's talk about time. Grove won 9 ERA titles, 7 in the decade of the 30s. Vance won 3 ERA titles, 1 in the decade of the 30s. Grove won almost 200 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in over 350 of them. Vance won 50 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in 165 games. Dazzy Vance won 7 straight strike out crowns, 0 in the decade of the 30s.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Haha ok. Let's talk about time. Grove won 9 ERA titles, 7 in the decade of the 30s. Vance won 3 ERA titles, 1 in the decade of the 30s. Grove won almost 200 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in over 350 of them. Vance won 50 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in 165 games. Dazzy Vance won 7 straight strike out crowns, 0 in the decade of the 30s.

Vance had a short career, like Koufax (though for very different reasons and in a very different pattern). This is what keeps him form being in the conversation of the best ever.

However, as all of his good years except for 1 overlap with Grove's career, how can we pretend he is not a contemporary?

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by packs

Oh come on. I'll give you Bunning, but Drysdale pitched the same number of seasons as Lefty Gomez did and his WAR is almost 30 points higher (not a typo). Give Don some credit for being as good as he was.

I didn't mention any hitters. When Grove won his MVP in 1931 Dazzy Vance was already 40 years old. I would hardly call them contemporaries.

Sorry, got you and Rats mixed up. He's arguing Koufax because WAR is garbage. If you want to argue WAR for Drysdale vs Gomez, then you must support Grove over Koufax, because Grove's WAR is higher no matter how you want to look at it: career, peak, top season.