Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[cammb]

I wonder how many of you mathematicians have seen Koufax pitch? I have and the players he pitched against say he was the best they had ever seen. The Yankees gave him accolades when they met in the World Series even commenting on his record of 25 and 5 stating "How did he loose 5 games?" I rest my case whether you like it or not

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

I wonder how many of you mathematicians have seen Koufax pitch? I have and the players he pitched against say he was the best they had ever seen. The Yankees gave him accolades when they met in the World Series even commenting on his record of 25 and 5 stating "How did he loose 5 games?" I rest my case whether you like it or not

How many of those yankees saw Grove pitch?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

How many of those yankees saw Grove pitch?

It amuses me that this kind of "evidence" is cited in support for Koufax and dismissed for everyone else (as it should be). Nobody faced all the lefties in discussion, and so "best I ever faced" is absolutely irrelevant to the question of who is best all time. Yet they keep dragging this horse out, because no mathematical arguments are really there.

Seperately,
I do not see how Valenzuela can possibly be ranked ahead of Randy Johnson.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by G1911

I do not see how Valenzuela can possibly be ranked ahead of Randy Johnson.

Greg, Johnson left the Astros after only half a season. He was brought in to take them to the World Series, which he did not do.

Valenzuela was always tough on the Astros. The Dodgers were in the same division, so I saw him pitch a lot. It's the same reason I think Kevin Brown is the greatest right-hander I ever saw. Rob

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Greg, Johnson left the Astros after only half a season. He was brought in to take them to the World Series, which he did not do.

Valenzuela was always tough on the Astros. The Dodgers were in the same division, so I saw him pitch a lot. It's the same reason I think Kevin Brown is the greatest right-hander I ever saw. Rob

Now I get it

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cammb

I wonder how many of you mathematicians have seen Koufax pitch? I have and the players he pitched against say he was the best they had ever seen. The Yankees gave him accolades when they met in the World Series even commenting on his record of 25 and 5 stating "How did he loose 5 games?" I rest my case whether you like it or not

How many of the games you watched Koufax pitch were in Crosley Field or the Coliseum or took place in 1960?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

How many of the games you watched Koufax pitch were in Crosley Field or the Coliseum or took place in 1960?

Hey, nobody can judge unless they saw Grove pitch too then by his standards. Any takers?

[packs]

You can't use my logic against me because my logic is sound. If you use your logic, you could say Robin Roberts and Sandy Koufax were contemporaries. And you'd be right about seasons overlapping but miss the point entirely when it came to their primes.

[Tabe]

I just wanna chime and say I'm loving the debate. Thanks guys.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

You can't use my logic against me because my logic is sound. If you use your logic, you could say Robin Roberts and Sandy Koufax were contemporaries. And you'd be right about seasons overlapping but miss the point entirely when it came to their primes.

I just gave you a year by year breakdown and source. Vance's PRIME overlaps almost entirely with Grove, except for 1924 alone.

Koufax's prime began 6 years after Roberts' ended (though he was excellent in 1958 as well).

The Gibson/Marichal situation is exactly the same as the Vance/Grove situation. Guy with short career gets his prime going a year or two early (1961 for Koufax, 1961 or 1962 for Gibson, 1963 for Marichal), overlap for the entirety of the shorter career patchers rest of career, and then the longer-lasting pitcher goes for several more years after shorter one burns out.

Holding Sandy, again, to different standards is not logic, it is the absence of it.

[packs]

Not really. You cherry picked some stats that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. What we're talking about is laid out below:

Grove won 9 ERA titles, 7 in the decade of the 30s. Vance won 3 ERA titles, 1 in the decade of the 30s. Grove won almost 200 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in over 350 of them. Vance won 50 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in 165 games. Dazzy Vance won 7 straight strike out crowns, 0 in the decade of the 30s.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Not really. You cherry picked some stats that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. What we're talking about is laid out below:

Grove won 9 ERA titles, 7 in the decade of the 30s. Vance won 3 ERA titles, 1 in the decade of the 30s. Grove won almost 200 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in over 350 of them. Vance won 50 games in the decade of the 30s and pitched in 165 games. Dazzy Vance won 7 straight strike out crowns, 0 in the decade of the 30s.

It is hardly cherry picking, it is literally every single year of Vance's productive career spelled out and sourced. Yes, Grove went longer. That is the point. If Grove doesn't count because he had a long career, then Marichal and Gibson are not contemporaries of Koufax, because he burned out early and they kept posting peak years.

EDIT: I would love to know what prime year of Vance's I did not include, since I was "cherry picking". Please be specific.