Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Robbie]

[QUOTE=Tabe;1998311]Where are the quotes about trying to hit Koufax in 1961?

Where are the quotes from any player that Koufax was easy to hit off of in their ballpark?.... or that he was just a "good" or "typical" pitcher when he pitched outside of dodger stadium?

"Wooohoooo.... we get to face that "staff average" guy, Koufax... Yipeeee!!!
--- Nobody

The Anti-Koufax Arguement:
Ignores that most Hall of Famers would say Koufax was the greatest lefty they had ever seen or played against. This includes HOFers who were still alive in the early to mid 1960's who had faced great pitchers from the past. THAT is the greatest compliment there is. Statistics can be bent and used in many different ways. Sometimes you have to look at other measures. JMO

[BeanTown]

Anyone who can hit hit a flying bird, gets my vote. The Big Unit Randy Johnson would do well in any era of baseball

https://youtu.be/FCNZg2xwl54

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Don't need quotes for that, the numbers tell us.

QUOTE=Robbie;1998316]
The Anti-Koufax Arguement:
Ignores that most Hall of Famers would say Koufax was the greatest lefty they had ever seen or played against. This includes HOFers who were still alive in the early to mid 1960's who had faced great pitchers from the past. THAT is the greatest compliment there is. Statistics can be bent and used in many different ways. Sometimes you have to look at other measures. JMO

That makes no sense. The statistics tell us what happened.

The guys you're talking about aren't discussing Koufax's entire career. They're not giving us big picture. They're remembering the four years where he dominated and ignoring the rest. Their stories are great, and add to the picture, but they don't tell us everything.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Tabe

That makes no sense. The statistics tell us what happened.

I guess... if you believe statistics tell the whole story, and sums up baseball.
I don't. There is much more to this beautiful game and individual's greatness than just these numbers being thrown back and forth.

But, for you stat/science heads, if you really want to use your method to "tell what happened..." you forgot to analyze the molecular structure of the infield dirt at each Pitcher's home park (I think each granule was .000000000001229 larger in Lefty Grove's home park than at Dodger Stadium, giving Grove's infielders a significant advantage over time on Koufax by increasing ground-outs), humidity and air pressure, tides and gravitational forces (including the number and average weight of fans at the stadium)... and this should be done for every game pitched for each of these top left-handed pitchers.

In other words... statistics leave things out.

Let me ask a question. Which one of the top 10 mentioned Left-Handed Pitchers specifically worked with ANOTHER PITCHER on the top 10 list to develop their pitching skills?

There is only one... and it is Sandy Koufax. He worked with Clayton Kershaw from very early in Kershaw's career to become the Pitcher he is. Does Kershaw's curve remind you of anyone else's?

Does this add to Koufax's greatness as a Pitcher?... that he can teach greatness to the player who was the young potential great of this era? I say HELL YES!!! But, where are the statistics for this accomplishment that none of the others can claim?

PS... We're all just having fun debate here. Please don't take anything personally.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I guess... if you believe statistics tell the whole story, and sums up baseball.
I don't. There is much more to this beautiful game and individual's greatness than just these numbers being thrown back and forth.

But, for you stat/science heads, if you really want to use your method to "tell what happened..." you forgot to analyze the molecular structure of the infield dirt at each Pitcher's home park (I think each granule was .000000000001229 larger in Lefty Grove's home park than at Dodger Stadium, giving Grove's infielders a significant advantage over time on Koufax by increasing ground-outs), humidity and air pressure, tides and gravitational forces (including the number and average weight of fans at the stadium)... and this should be done for every game pitched for each of these top left-handed pitchers.

In other words... statistics leave things out.

Let me ask a question. Which one of the top 10 mentioned Left-Handed Pitchers specifically worked with ANOTHER PITCHER on the top 10 list to develop their pitching skills?

There is only one... and it is Sandy Koufax. He worked with Clayton Kershaw from very early in Kershaw's career to become the Pitcher he is. Does Kershaw's curve remind you of anyone else's?

Does this add to Koufax's greatness as a Pitcher?... that he can teach greatness to the player who was the young potential great of this era? I say HELL YES!!! But, where are the statistics for this accomplishment that none of the others can claim?

PS... We're all just having fun debate here. Please don't take anything personally.

I don’t think coaching has much to do with who the best pitcher was. Otherwise, we must conclude that Johnny Sain is better than Walter Johnson, for Johnson failed and Sain is legendary as a coach. It’s separate. When ranking 3B, we don’t put John McGraw at the top because of his managerial career.

If we throw out statistics, what is the basis for our reasoning? How do we prove or make a reasoned case for anyone, without numbers or verifiable data? There must be some standard to replace it with

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I guess... if you believe statistics tell the whole story, and sums up baseball.
I don't. There is much more to this beautiful game and individual's greatness than just these numbers being thrown back and forth.

But, for you stat/science heads, if you really want to use your method to "tell what happened..." you forgot to analyze the molecular structure of the infield dirt at each Pitcher's home park (I think each granule was .000000000001229 larger in Lefty Grove's home park than at Dodger Stadium, giving Grove's infielders a significant advantage over time on Koufax by increasing ground-outs), humidity and air pressure, tides and gravitational forces (including the number and average weight of fans at the stadium)... and this should be done for every game pitched for each of these top left-handed pitchers.

You might be onto something!! Lol