Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Posting on this for the first time, and appreciate all the undercover work over on BO, plus having the folks here link to (and consequently introduce me to) BO. Like all who love this hobby, I'm sickened. What I cannot understand is how people cannot see cards that do not fit into the holder, especially modern cards.

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding.

The other part that really has me fearful of the breadth and depth of this fraud is the Parkhurst wresting card. I mean, if those cards are being doctored, there is no limit to the amount of potential fraud.

Bob

In the case of the '34 Gehrig, it is just glare from the plastic holder. Obviously the same card (before and after), as are all of the examples presented in which PSA has failed. Not a good time to diminish the meticulous work that's being done for the good of the hobby, or bury our heads in the sand.

[Exhibitman]

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

Adam you are asking a lot here.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

This. This. This.

But let's see who actually will. Like I said, we need to start a new thread with those willing to do this and sign their names to it - a pledge - and hold people accountable to their pledge. I'll sign it. Anybody else?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

This is getting ridiculous.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

It's amazing. The same evil sorcery that caused the bizarre purge of back scans from PWCC website after their "server crossover" has now struck poor VCP! What cruel priestess spins such a wicked spell on our beloved hobby stalwarts??? Why must such unexplainable disease burden the back scan??? Hath god spited the card number? Perhaps he tired of thou outdated statistics???

Who will be the next victim in this completely random PWCC pre-2015 back scan-only virus??? Quick! Everyone to their hard drives! There's no telling if you've been afflicted!

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

It's amazing. The same evil sorcery that caused the bizarre purge of back scans from PWCC website after their "server crossover" has now struck poor VCP! What cruel priestess spins such a wicked spell on our beloved hobby stalwarts??? Why must such unexplainable disease burden the back scan??? Hath god spited the card number? Perhaps he tired of thou outdated statistics???

Who will be the next victim in this completely random PWCC pre-2015 back scan-only virus??? Quick! Everyone to their hard drives! There's no telling if you've been afflicted!

Seems to work fine..

[BLongley]

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...s-vault-option

This along with another forum on PSA is currently ongoing and PSA is letting it run its course as long as everyone stays civil. Todd Tobias who works at PSA did say that Sloan is gathering all information on PWCC and once he has details will be making some sort of announcement, but in short PSA is not ignoring this.

And here is another link to Collectors Universe Forum: https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ned-by-pwcc/p4

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BLongley

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...s-vault-option

This along with another forum on PSA is currently ongoing and PSA is letting it run its course as long as everyone stays civil. Todd Tobias who works at PSA did say that Sloan is gathering all information on PWCC and once he has details will be making some sort of announcement, but in short PSA is not ignoring this.

And here is another link to Collectors Universe Forum: https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ned-by-pwcc/p4

My early prediction is that PSA finally breaks its silence by providing a "sacrificial lamb". A single (low-level) individual who gets fired for being linked to PWCC.

And then it's business as usual, and they all live happily ever after.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

It's amazing. The same evil sorcery that caused the bizarre purge of back scans from PWCC website after their "server crossover" has now struck poor VCP! What cruel priestess spins such a wicked spell on our beloved hobby stalwarts??? Why must such unexplainable disease burden the back scan??? Hath god spited the card number? Perhaps he tired of thou outdated statistics???

Who will be the next victim in this completely random PWCC pre-2015 back scan-only virus??? Quick! Everyone to their hard drives! There's no telling if you've been afflicted!

You realize they don't host these images? They are on other sites. They have no control over whether or not they appear. At least that's how I understand it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

I have been avoiding PWCC for many years and just use PSA for cards I want to sell for way more than I could get any other way.

That is silly to put Bobby/VCP in that group for now. Has it been proven he actually done anything.

Adding Bobby would be like you not visiting this site because PWCC is the largest advertiser here.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

This is just about the part I made bold. This may seem strange to some but I have no problem with Leon taking Brents $ for advertising. Seriously do you stop watching a channel on TV because they aired a commercial you don't like. I may not like the advertisement but I sure as hell like the channel/forum or I wouldn't be here.

He is letting all this go down on HIS forum, gotta respect him for that.

Someone might want to quote this for posterity.

[Tennis13]

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

I have long felt that SGC was better at detecting trimming and alterations, but like I suggested above, I haven't had much experience submitting hordes of raw T206s to them in 4 or 5 years.

Having said that, I may be going "paleo" with my collecting, avoiding grading altogether until someone designs a grading system that addresses the myriad problems we're seeing today.

[perezfan]

NM

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I have long felt that SGC was better at detecting trimming and alterations, but like I suggested above, I haven't had much experience submitting hordes of raw T206s to them in 4 or 5 years.

Having said that, I may be going "paleo" with my collecting, avoiding grading altogether until someone designs a grading system that addresses the myriad problems we're seeing today.

Paleo diet for me as well....

While it is an opportune window for SGC, I would REALLY love to see RAW trade at a premium. May never happen... but who better than us, to determine what looks best. Without "preferred" clients, severe time constraints and hoards of cards to sift through, most of us can blow the doors off those guys anyway!

[pokerplyr80]

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

Are you being serious?

[trambo]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

Agree w/you! Not everything is a conspiracy. I appreciate Bobby of VCP being on this board and explaining what happened to him and his business. I could be a fool later but the responses make sense to me! No reason to cancel anything except a PWCC bid at this point!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

you my friends are absolutely correct. I won't be bidding on any baseball cards PERIOD

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

you my friends are absolutely correct. I won't be bidding on any baseball cards PERIOD

Will you be refraining from posting here?

[CMIZ5290]

Meanwhile......Brent and R.P. are laughing all the way to the bank...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Meanwhile......Brent and R.P. are laughing all the way to the bank...

For now. So too were Bill and Doug, I suspect.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Meanwhile......Brent and R.P. are laughing all the way to the bank...

No one is laughing.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Will you be refraining from posting here?

Unfortunately, not

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Unfortunately, not

lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

... Not a good time to diminish the meticulous work that's being done for the good of the hobby, or bury our heads in the sand.

If that’s the message you got out of my post then it’s time for you to take a functional literacy comprehension course.

[perezfan]

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. . . . So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It’s like the old saying, “Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”

I am afraid that the holder is now more important than its contents, if for no other reason than too many people have too much invested in the slab.

It’s always about the money. PSA is too big to fail.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It’s like the old saying, “Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”

I am afraid that the holder is now more important than its contents, if for no other reason than too many people have too much invested in the slab.

It’s always about the money. PSA is too big to fail.

As I say, the flip is the commodity. Tis true.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with.

Cant imagine why

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

To get the cards into the plastic holder so they can be sold for more money than if they were left raw. Once a trimmed card gets a grade, it is for all intents and purposes not a trimmed card anymore.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

I think you can still sleep easy that they can spot a legit from a fake, now a unconserved from a conserved, eh.

j@ff dr*m

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

Graded I think is just where the hobby was by 2014 - I think it was to the point where seeing nice raw cards made you wonder why they weren't graded esp. with unfamiliar sellers. I don't like doing it, but I buy graded cards without a back scan and sometimes even when the scan of the front isn't great because the grade gives me an idea of the condition. Even when I've had instances where I was disappointed, I always keep the card, just not worth the hassle of the return for me. I think the TPGs are doing ok with the grading part, its the authentication part that's the issue. Maybe these two things should be broken out and done by different teams. One team should determine whether the card is genuine and if so whether it has been doctored. Then a completely different team put the number grade on it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

David,
If I could give you a fist bump I would.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

I have pondered this for years also, David. The best I can figure, the registry has continued to drive the PSA machine...which I know isn't news. Also, many people stopped collecting cards in exchange for flips a long time ago.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[perezfan]

Agree with David... it’s criminal.

[frankbmd]

The underworld is not transparent.

Show me the Card Fax.

Is buying a used card that different from buying a used car?

One benefits from the “repair” history of the car before the purchase.

Does the card doctor proudly put a sticker on the card to document his fine work?

Does the auction house reference their prior sale of the same card when the “altered and graded” card is relisted by the same auction house and have the gall to add a sticker that the card doctor omitted?

Does the grader acknowledge that the same, now altered, card has previously received a lower grade? Shouldn’t he know, even if there is no money passed under the table?

Do you really want to spend $10000, $20000 or more on a card without this information to garner an elite status gold star on a registry? Apparently many do.

To try to absolve any of the involved entities of guilt, by placing the blame on one of the others, is the pot calling the kettle black or vice versa. Are all the parties colluding in the scheme? Perhaps not to the same degree, but they are at least complicit.

If there was a true whistle blower at any of the stops along the way, the fraud would be uncovered. Blowout and Net54 both have members no doubt with skin in the game. But Redefining fraud to absolve oneself of guilt seems by most to be an insufficient tactic. To remain silent and wait for the wind to blow this away may be successful, but does not mean the fraud isn’t happening.

Disclaimer: I have never seen a Car Fax, or had any dealing with them

I would buy a 1992 Toyota without one, but would be more careful in the purchase of my Rolls Royce or Bentley.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The underworld is not transparent.

Show me the Card Fax.

Is buying a used card that different from buying a used car?

One benefits from the “repair” history of the car before the purchase.

Does the card doctor proudly put a sticker on the card to document his fine work?

Does the auction house reference their prior sale of the same card when the “altered and graded” card is relisted by the same auction house and have the gall to add a sticker that the card doctor omitted?

Does the grader acknowledge that the same, now altered, card has previously received a lower grade? Shouldn’t he know, even if there is no money passed under the table.

Do you really want to spend $10000, $20000 or more on a card without this information to garner an elite status gold star on a registry? Apparently many do.

To try to absolve any of the involved entities of guilt, by placing the blame on one of the others, is the pot calling the kettle black or vice versa. Are all the parties colluding in the scheme? Perhaps not to the same degree, but they are at least complicit.

If there was a true whistle blower at any of the stops along the way, the fraud would be uncovered. Blowout and Net54 both have members no doubt with skin in the game. But Redefining fraud to absolve oneself of guilt seems by most to be an insufficient tactic. To remain silent and wait for the wind to blow this away may be successful, but does not mean the fraud isn’t happening.

Disclaimer: I have never seen a Car Fax, or had any dealing with them

I would buy a 1992 Toyota without one, but would be more careful in the purchase of my Rolls Royce or Bentley.

Kinda

EDIT: Shoulda seen it coming. I posted before I got to the next line.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

F PSA, F Brent Mastro and F Gary Hoser. They are all criminals, IMHO.

[bobbyw8469]

The more I read that post over on Blowout, the more BLOWN AWAY I am at the shear depth and mass quantity of cards that have been tainted by this guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The more I read that post over on Blowout, the more BLOWN AWAY I am at the shear depth and mass quantity of cards that have been tainted by this guy.

It's not confined to him by any means Bob. He just left an easier path to retrace.

[perezfan]

Correct. There are more card doctors than you can count. Moser is one... many more have been exposed on BO.

The common denominator is PSA authorization.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Correct. There are more card doctors than you can count. Moser is one... many more have been exposed on BO.

The common denominator is PSA authorization.

AND BRENT MASTRO who has allowed it for 10 YEARS

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

AND BRENT MASTRO who has allowed it for 10 YEARS

Or longer.

[Exhibitman]

This whole situation is f***ed. I don't collect the stuff that has been in these lists and posts but I feel just terrible about it for those who spent their hard-earned money on these fraudulent products. I also feel bad for this hobby. The vast majority of collectors and sellers are honest and decent folks who wouldn't dream of being part of a scam like this, and they (we) are all going to eat some financial crap because of this. All i can say to the doctors and their enablers is



damn you all to hell.